Michael Miller. Meditation: the Ultimate Post-Exit Medicine

Episode - 46

Michael Miller. Meditation: the Ultimate Post-Exit Medicine

This interview is a special one for me. Michael Miller has been a friend for over 15 years and has made a huge difference in my life.

He's a Vedic meditation teacher who taught me to meditate at a time when I was searching for clarity and tranquility following a life-changing exit.

Since then, meditation has been my go-to tool for healing, finding peace, processing ideas, and making decisions. And it's not just me, people like Jack Dorsey, Bill Gates, Arianna Huffington, and Ray Dalio all credit meditation for helping them on their own post-exit journeys.

Before discovering his calling as a meditation teacher, Michael had a successful business career.

That experience gives him a unique ability to explain meditation in ways that make sense to us entrepreneurs.

If you've tried meditation before, but let it slip, this might just inspire you to pick it back up.

What We Discussed:

00:00:03: Introduction of Michael Miller and the significance of meditation

00:00:22: The impact of meditation on the body and mind

00:01:11: Michael's journey to becoming a meditation teacher

00:02:05: Struggles with early meditation experiences

00:06:56: Discovery of Vedic meditation

00:09:03: Embracing meditation and its immediate effects

00:10:24: Long-term commitment to meditation

00:14:04: Different types of meditation and their effects

00:17:04: The process and benefits of automatic self-transcending techniques

00:21:43: Discussing Neuroplasticity

00:22:27: Effects of Meditation on the Body

00:23:29: Practical Benefits of Meditation

00:26:05: Story of Increased Confidence

00:27:26: Intellect vs. Gut Feel in Decision Making

00:28:53: Real-life Examples of Meditation Benefits

00:32:28: Non-Attachment and Meditation

00:34:37: Discussion on Non-Attachment

00:35:56: Impact of Personal Peace

00:37:02: Meditation as a Tool for Positive Change

00:38:22: Changing Family Dynamics through Meditation

00:39:25: Individual Peace for a Peaceful World

00:40:17: Starting with Personal Peace for Greater Impact

00:41:09: Simultaneous Self-Work and External Impact

00:42:01: Bringing Peace into the World

00:43:01: Practical Outcomes of Meditation

Sure, here are the key chapters with timestamps from the transcription you provided:

00:43:42: The Enlightened Leader and Personal Fulfillment

00:44:26: The Direction of Personal Growth Post Business Success

00:45:24: The Pursuit of Lasting Fulfillment

00:47:18: Realizing that Material Wealth and Experiences Don’t Equate to Happiness

00:49:35: Addiction as a Spiritual Search

00:50:15: Expanding Consciousness for True Fulfillment

00:51:03: Becoming a Real Leader Through Wholeness

00:55:56: Relevant Longevity and Maintaining a Balanced Nervous System

00:59:08: Developing a Practical Toolbox for Fulfillment and Leadership

01:08:47: The Dilemma of Fighting Those You Love

01:09:15: Krishna's Teaching: Established in Being, Perform Action

01:09:54: Applying Krishna's Wisdom in Modern Life

01:10:53: The Role of Coaching and Therapy for High Performers

01:11:21: Dealing with Success and Moving Forward

01:14:05: Embracing Continuous Growth and Expansion

01:14:42: Understanding Life Stages in Vedic Knowledge

01:17:04: Transitioning to a Mentoring Role

01:18:00: Handling Post-Business Life and New Challenges

01:19:30: Being Comfortable with Discomfort

01:21:01: Finding Meaning Beyond Material Success

01:22:00: The Dangers of Premature Contentedness

01:23:30: The Importance of Sustainable Practices

01:25:03: Achieving Balance and Emotional Flexibility

01:27:12: Embracing Serenity and Inner Contentedness

01:28:08: The Real Test of Enlightenment

01:28:29: Key Practices for Fulfillment

01:30:22: Feeling Connected to a Diverse Community

01:33:01: Discussing generosity and building connections

01:34:10: Benefits of traveling and experiencing different cultures

01:35:59: Experience of traveling around India

01:37:22: Combining meditation with breath work

01:39:23: Understanding and defining consciousness

01:42:14: Purpose in living and contributing

01:46:12: How to be remembered

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• Read Full Transcript

  Michael Miller: [00:00:03 - 00:00:03]

  Hi everyone. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:04 - 00:00:22]

  This interview is a special one for me. Michael Miller has been a friend for over 15 years and has made a huge difference in my life. He's a Vedic meditation teacher who taught me to meditate at a time when I was searching for clarity and tranquility following a life changing exit. 

  Michael Miller: [00:00:22 - 00:00:40]

  Body is a printout of the mind. So the mind quietens down, moves towards this settled blissful state. Body starts to print out bliss chemistry. You start having anandamine and dopamine and serotonin coursing through the system. The chemistry of bliss is the chemistry of healing. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:40 - 00:01:22]

  Since then, meditation has been my go to tool for healing, finding peace, processing ideas and making decisions. And it's not just me. People like Jack Dorsey, Bill Gates, Arianna Huffington and Ray Dalio all credit meditation for helping them on their own post Exit Journeys before discovering his calling as a meditation teacher, Michael had a successful business. That experience gives him a unique ability to explain meditation in ways that make sense to us entrepreneurs. If you've tried meditation before but let it slip, this might just inspire you to pick it back up. Michael, thank you so much for being here. 

  Michael Miller: [00:01:22 - 00:01:26]

  Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for our conversation. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:26 - 00:01:29]

  So you and I met 20 years ago, maybe even more. 

  Michael Miller: [00:01:29 - 00:01:32]

  It was September of 2009. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:32 - 00:01:32]

  Oh, amazing. 

  Michael Miller: [00:01:33 - 00:01:38]

  Very interesting moment in the economic world that that was when you came to learn to meditate. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:38 - 00:02:23]

  Exactly. You taught me to meditate and that completely changed my life. And it was also at the very important moment that you gave me that tool. But equally as importantly, you gave me conviction that meditation is important. Because you may remember I told you that that before I met you, I tried to learn meditation from five or six different sources. And my problem was that I never had the conviction that it's ever going to do anything for me. But you spoke my language when you talked to me. You gave me exactly the right arguments, which I later reminded myself when I would stop meditating. Because to be honest, I wasn't always a perfect. 

  Michael Miller: [00:02:24 - 00:02:27]

  A little up and down. Yeah, it's often the experience and now. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:27 - 00:02:52]

  I try to be disciplined with it. Sometimes I stop just because I get distracted, but every single time when I restart, it reminds me how extremely powerful meditation is. So I am so excited you're here and you can share your wisdom with my audience and hopefully achieve similar result. For those who are not sure, meditation is something worth doing. 

  Michael Miller: [00:02:53 - 00:02:54]

  Yes, yes, that's great. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:54 - 00:03:03]

  Before we get there, I would love you to talk a little bit about yourself and how you ended up teach in meditation and why you speak entrepreneurial language so well. 

  Michael Miller: [00:03:05 - 00:10:23]

  Well, coming from you, I take that as a great compliment. And, and I do think it's, it's something important because many people have the experience you have. Oh, meditation sort of seems like a good idea, but that's for a different kind of person. That's for somebody else. And I was a little bit the opposite. I first encountered meditation when I was at university. I had a professor who was a bit of an old hippie. He had meditated a lot in the 70s and he talked about how great it was and described some of his experiences. And I found it intriguing. And then he gave us a little time in class. Not really any instruction, interestingly. He just said, maybe focus on something to help control your mind. And I remember so clearly I sat on the floor and there was sort of a mat that I sat on and I had a tennis ball in my bag for some reason, and I pulled that out and I cupped it in my hands and I sat cross legged because that seemed like a meditative position. And then I stared and stared and stared at the seams on that tennis ball. And you know, I think I was gritting my teeth and sweating because I was focusing so hard. And it was uncomfortable and not enjoyable. Probably the longest 10 minutes of my university career. My mind was all over the place. I had some idea about what that was supposed to be. Something did happen. There was some little sense of quietening down just a little bit. And then I thought, oh, that's it, that's what I'm looking for. And I went chasing after that. And I spent would have been around a decade trying all different types of meditation, you know, sitting in Buddhist temples and doing different mental exercises. And I did a lot of yoga and I did martial arts and bodywork and, you know, sort of energy work and drum circles and really going every direction. It was Seattle in the 90s and there were all kinds of opportunities to try far out things, which I'm really pleased that I did. And it was quite enjoyable along the way. And none of it clicked, none of it stuck for me. And so I kind of let all this go. I grew up in the Midwest of America, in Iowa, strangely, and it seems like a very, very long time ago. And then I went to Seattle for graduate school and I started a business career there. I was working in music promotion and in theater marketing. And then I moved to Los Angeles and did a number of different things, some of which was my own kind of small business work, working for different companies in different sectors. I ended up in the publishing world, working for an entertainment magazine and newspaper. And that was great. And it was, you know, this, this moment where I kind of found a drive in business and a world that I was really excited about. And I was, you know, I was on a little bit of an executive track in doing that thing. And it was 60, 70 hour weeks and then going out at night for events every night and really burning the candle at every end in a way that I could detect even a couple of years in. I'm not sure this is sustainable. And then a friend of mine learned this technique that we call Vedic meditation. And let's come back to what that means. This was a good friend who, she was happy to the point of mania. You know, these Americans bouncing off the walls. She's with the smile of, you know, beautiful, beautiful person and hyper. And she learned to meditate and it like within 10 days she was different. Like it was really noticeable how much she softened and came to her center. And so I was really clocking this. And then she quit a job. She had a sales job that she had been complaining about for two years. And this group of friends, we'd been saying to her, look, you got clearly, you need to get out of that place. It is not good for you. This is not a match. And then a few weeks into meditation she came and she kind of said almost offhandedly, oh, by the way, quit my job. This big life changing decision. And it was non dramatic, you know, it wasn't a big deal, it wasn't tortured, it was just like it was time. And that put me back on my heels a bit. I was like, oh, something is really happening. Because I was not searching for meditation. I was not on a, you know, I was on a business, corporate acquisitional path. And I was liking that I wasn't looking for something. And so when I saw such a change in her, I didn't resist. But I, you know, I wasn't, I didn't think, oh, this is it. I just thought, what is going on here? What's happening? And so I went, her teacher gave a talk and I went and it was an hour long talk about the science of meditation and the impact and how it can change things over time. It was all very fascinating. Ten minutes in, it just kind of happened inside of me. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this. I wasn't even that interested still in, in meditation. I just felt like you have something, you have an intelligence and a clarity and a calm and a sense of yourself. You've got something. And I want that because it's not what I'm witnessing in you, is not what I'm feeling. And if meditation, you know, if what you're saying is meditation delivered that, then I'll do that, whatever that means. I don't know. Fine, fine. Sign me up. And I jumped in and started. And it was so different from what I had done before. Again, we can talk about the specifics of that as much as you want. But most of all, I sat down to meditate, knowing what I was doing. And I don't know how that was for you, but that was a huge difference from other things I had tried where I would just sort of scrunch my face and try and have some experience. I don't even know what that experience was meant to be. I just knew I wasn't getting there. And with this, I sat down and I had a really clear line about what correct technique is. Do this, you are meditating. Don't do that, you're not meditating. I appreciate that clarity. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:23 - 00:10:24]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [00:10:24 - 00:10:24]

  Boom. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:24 - 00:10:26]

  I was what you taught me as well. 

  Michael Miller: [00:10:26 - 00:10:27]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:27 - 00:10:29]

  Simple and clear. 

  Michael Miller: [00:10:29 - 00:10:29]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:30 - 00:10:31]

  And effective. 

  Michael Miller: [00:10:31 - 00:10:49]

  Yes. Yeah. And effective in that I noticed change really quite swiftly. First week, exhausted. I think this was true for you. I think you were quite tired when you learned everyone comes to meditation. Tired. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:10:49 - 00:11:04]

  Also overwhelmed. Like I remember telling you, like, I don't feel well. I have all these negative thoughts coming up. And you told me about that glass of champagne and all the bubbles coming up. And I thought, okay, yes, I'll wait for the bubbles to go to the surface. 

  Michael Miller: [00:11:04 - 00:13:27]

  The bubbles are coming. Yes, yes. So I think that is really something that happens in the early days, and it certainly did for me. Tiredness coming up, some negativity, some edginess. But then two weeks in, I was sleeping more deeply, actually sleeping less than I had been prior. An hour less sleep, but feeling more wakeful, getting up before my alarm, getting through the afternoon without a big sugary muffin. Again, this is America. These are what snacks are. And I could feel something was going on. There is change happening. I can see result. And, you know, I think for your audience, I often speak in the language of Roi. You know, there are lots of things I could do. And with 20 minutes, and if I'm going to spend 20 minutes twice a day sitting in a chair with my eyes closed, I better be seeing some return from that, because I could be studying my French and learning to knit and calling my family more often. You know, there are other things I could do with that. 20 minutes, twice a day. It's not that much time. You know, even very busy people can look at their phone time usage. And that app is going to reveal how you do have 40 minutes in your life in order to meditate. Because Instagram was not worth it almost for anyone. And yet that is a chunk of time to see a result. That was a big deal for me. I was results oriented in my life and I could feel something happening and I could see. See it revealing itself. And that kept me inspired. And so I got on with it. I meditated. I did it for about a year, and then my teacher suggested that maybe I would be interested in learning to become a teacher. That was a couple more years of study. And then it all culminated. I went three and a half months full time in residence training. So I was in India for a little bit, and then with him in Arizona, in Flagstaff, up in the northern mountains. And then I've been teaching full time since then. So I graduated as a teacher in 2007. On this day, I've been meditating regularly for 19 years and 51 weeks. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:13:27 - 00:13:30]

  That's crazy. Well, I can count to say that. 

  Michael Miller: [00:13:30 - 00:14:02]

  One day, I can count on two hands the number of meditations I've missed in that time. And when I learned, I never thought that would be true. You know, 20 minutes, twice a day, no way is that happening. And there's every reason for it not to. But I liked it, it felt good. I saw a difference and I wanted to do it. And, you know, it happened. And I haven't stuck with anything else in my life to that degree. It was that combination of things that created the sustainability. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:04 - 00:14:07]

  So you mentioned the science of meditation. 

  Michael Miller: [00:14:07 - 00:14:07]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:07 - 00:14:09]

  Could we talk a bit about that? 

  Michael Miller: [00:14:09 - 00:14:11]

  Yeah. I love that. I love it. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:11 - 00:14:15]

  Because what do we know from the scientific standpoint actually works? 

  Michael Miller: [00:14:17 - 00:23:42]

  So, I mean, I have to distinguish a little bit because different types of meditation have different effects. And there are lots of things out there that are referred to as meditation. One of those is concentration, focused attention. So this is like stare at a candle flame or just close your eyes and grit your teeth and, you know, try to not think. Don't think, don't think, don't think. Mostly then you think, oh, no, don't think, don't think. Because it's another thought that's hard work. If we measure your system while you're doing a concentration style, it's very interesting. Theta brainwaves increase. That's part of focused attention. If we're scanning your brain in a functional mri, we see the Part of your brain that's associated with focused attention really light up. And if you do that regularly, despite it being hard work and many people report kind of frustrating or uncomfortable, it does start to develop that muscle of being able to be focused. So many styles, concentration. Then there's what we hear about so much mindfulness and open monitoring, meditation, it's known as scientifically. And in this, the idea is bring yourself to the present moment, stay there, you know, stay in the present. And there are ways to do that. Maybe I focus on body sensation. I feel my feet on the floor and the weight of my back and the cushion and the air on my face and you know, sort of sensation. It could be breath, you know, just noticing the breath moving in and out or puffing out of the nostrils while I. And it's a very interesting thing. You know, the idea is to be in the moment. But here I am trying to be in the moment by putting attention on the bottom of my feet. I'm sorry, what was I talking like? Weirdly, I've taken myself out of the present moment. I've added this layer to my experience of I'm trying to be present with you, but I'm doing that by paying attention to my body. That's hard enough in this situation. We're in a lovely quiet room just having a chat and that's a little challenging. If you're in your Q3 board meeting and you're thinking about the bottom of your feet, you're probably not actually present in the moment. You're not really present in the way that's being asked of you in those, those circumstances. But what it does is it moves you out of the, the overactive intellect and into the midbrain. So we see the middle of the brain really light up. This is about sensory perception and present moment awareness. And that starts to get a little more lit up. The front of the brain gets more quiet. So what we teach is, it's called an automatic self transcending technique. So let's break it down. Automatic. It happens easily and effortlessly. You learn a little sound, a mantra that is chosen and personalized for the student taught to you by the teacher. You think that silently. So this would be a beautiful chair to meditate in. My back is supported, I'm leaning back, I'm able to really let go. And then I close my eyes and I start to think. This little sound, very simple, resonant, mellifluous sound. As I think it, that sound, it has a quality of self refinement. It begins to get More quiet, more subtle inside. At the same time the mantra is very fascinating, it's very charming to your mind. And this is the way your mind works. Your mind is always looking for charm, always looking for what's more interesting. And so we offer up the mantra and the mind gets drawn toward it. And then the mantra is getting more quiet and more subtle. The mind is following it down into very subtle thinking. And then the mantra does its final trick. It gets so quiet that it disappears. And then for a moment your mind is left in this state of no mantra and no thought. Pure awareness, being. It's you without thinking. And that is your ground state. That is the source of your energy and your intelligence and your organizing power and your creativity, your compassion, your happiness all lives in that place. Now a couple of things happen. Your brain, if we again, if we have you hooked up to the electroencephalograph, those 16 wires coming out of the rubber cap, running to the machine, what we see is your prefrontal cortex gets very active. So this is the part of your brain that's in charge of executive functioning, long term planning, moral reasoning, higher judgment. The part of the brain that we most want to emphasize gets very active and what they call bi hemispheric. So the right half of the brain, the left half of the brain, cross cleft, communicate, they operate in a very coherent way. So usually this is a brain signature that we just see, see in moments of insight and creativity. That aha moment, your brain kind of lights up like this for a moment and then it goes back to its usual programming. What we see in a technique like this is extended coherence, longer and more often than we see in any other circumstances. And the back of the brain, the reptilian brain, that limbic system gets very quiet. So that's the part of your brain that's in charge of fight and flight. And when that part of your brain lights up, when you're under too much pressure and you get stressed, the front of the brain shuts down, it goes offline. Because long term planning is not important. If some part of you thinks it's being attacked by a bear, you know, you take long term plan, don't think about the mortgage, don't think about your five year plan, don't even think about next week, pay attention to this moment right now and look for danger and figure out how to get away from it or how to kill it. And that's actually really poor for people who need to be using this part in their brain, you know, and that's you and everybody you know, you know. Yes, sometimes in business you have to be very driven and, and this is not about turning into some kind of spaced out bliss bunny, you know, I'm a meditator. It's all groovy and cool. Like this is not taking away, it's actually adding to your ability to be decisive and forward thinking and, and perspective because you're not distracted by what's not true. And what's not true is there is no bear in the room that's trying to kill you. And if your system is ramped up like that, it's not doing what it's meant to do. So the mind quietens down. This part of the brain gets very active, even without thought. Do that regularly. It changes your brain. How you use your brain changes it. Neuroplasticity. And so what you do is you start to build a brain that has more interneuronal connections, a thicker, richer dendritic web. There's more communication between different parts of the brain. You're accessing more of your potential. So meditators are smarter, their memories are better, their critical and creative thinking skills increase as a result of regular meditation. And there's an effect on the body because what happens in the mind occurs in the body. Body's a printout of the mind. So the mind quietens down, moves towards this settled, blissful state. Body starts to print out bliss chemistry. You start having anandamine and dopamine and serotonin coursing through the system. The chemistry of bliss is the chemistry of healing. And so what we see is meditators come into balance. They re engineer and they get more healthy. And we see this really clearly in longitudinal studies that they access the healthcare system less often and particularly in what the insurance game calls the three C's. Cardiac arrest, cancer and car crashes. It's the three C's that get most people and those, the numbers go down in meditators quite, quite significantly. So it's great science, you know, and it was one of the things that really hooked me because, you know, I was not looking to become enlightened, you know, that was not on my plate. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:42 - 00:23:46]

  You wanted some practical, pragmatic benefit you would get out of it. 

  Michael Miller: [00:23:46 - 00:24:21]

  The idea that, oh, you know, I have cardiac issues in my family and meditation might offset something like that. Brilliant. Oh, I could think more clearly. Oh, fantastic. I could sleep better. Great. These really practical, in the moment, tangible things were meaningful to me. And I think, you know, it's why most people come. Yeah, they're anxious, they're tired they're feeling, as you said, overwhelmed, and they want some kind of relief from. From that. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:24:21 - 00:25:04]

  I remember my aha moment when I decided I need to do that. That was during. During the process of. Of your teaching. And you were giving me all these different arguments, and. And I was absolutely buying into it. But I remember there was a problem in business that I needed to solve, and. And I. There were so many pros and cons, and I wrote them down, and I was kind of stuck in it. And then I meditated, and I just knew the answer, and I knew it with so much confidence that I couldn't even understand why I didn't know before. And that moment, like, why 20 minutes ago I didn't know the answer shocked me. 

  Michael Miller: [00:25:04 - 00:25:05]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:05 - 00:25:17]

  And I thought, oh, my God, that's what happened. And then, of course, it happened many, many times later when I strategically used meditation when I felt I needed to make a decision and the decision would come. 

  Michael Miller: [00:25:17 - 00:29:14]

  Yes. And interestingly, and I think this is your experience. Tell me. It doesn't feel like you think about. You know, we don't meditate on. We don't go in looking to problem solve, but exactly as you say, you come out, you just know what to do. You move into spontaneous right action. And my partner, Gillian. And by the way, let me be sure and get you her book, which is called why Meditate? Because it works so fantastic. It really goes a lot into the science is really, really useful. When she learned she was, you know, she was in her 20s and she had been headhunted to start the Australasian division of a international publishing house. And, you know, it was a startup environment. She hired 95 people in a year, you know, like, wham. Really in the deep end. And, you know, her report is that this was the biggest thing for her. True confidence. Confidence in a sense of trusting herself, like she knew what to do. And that's because you're tapping into something bigger than yourself and your pro and con list. You know, to work at the level of the individual intellect is really hard. And every entrepreneur knows this. The ideas don't come from you. The ideas come from consciousness, come from the collective, and you become the conduit for that. You know, there's an idea out there in the world that is looking for someone to implement it, and nature taps you and says, okay, you seem to have a skill set that might make this creation come into being. And boom, we get this impulse, oh, here's the thing, we start chasing after it, but then we move out of the gut feel and we move up into our head and, you know, of course we need to think about stuff, but it's not the place that. That decisions get made. And, you know, the metaphor we always use for this is that the intellect is the accountant, and they keep track of everything and record everything. And the CEO goes to the accountant and says, what are my funds? And here's my idea. How did it work out last time? And the accountant goes, oh, it worked great. And here are all the funds we've got. Great, thank you very much. And boom, you go with your idea. You don't go to the accountant for an idea or for executive direction. We can't work at the level of the intellect when we're trying to make decisions because we don't have enough processing power to figure out every last thing. We have to go from that fine level of feeling. And this is something. And I love that you experienced this so early on. This is something that every meditator who pays attention notices over time. I just know what to do. I come out of meditation, I call my friend. I just came to me, I don't know, I'll call. They say, oh, my gosh, it's so good you called right now. I really needed to talk to somebody. Or you come out and you're like, wait a minute, I know how to rewrite that line of code. I remember getting some software package when we were first setting up our business, and so many solutions came to me about how to tie this together and do this and something. Something. I wouldn't think about it during meditation. I would just come out and go, wait a minute, I'm going to get over there and get into that database. And this is exact. Boom, done. Everybody reports this over time. You get past the individual intellect and you tap into a place of knowingness and you recognize what it is you have to do. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:16 - 00:30:39]

  Absolutely. I experienced that, and I agree with you. And you obviously saw many more people experiencing it as well. But there is another story which also happened during the time you were teaching me. And if you remember, it was both my husband and I doing it together. And we had this joke before, between you and me, that nobody ever asks him for direction. People ask me for direction, but never him. And I would always tease him that he's just not approachable because he had this very serious expression on his face or whatever it was. And then during one of our sessions, you actually said that. You said, you'll notice that you become much more approachable, and people ask you for direction. Directions. And then my husband actually Whispered to me. He said, well, not me. Not happening. Because it was a joke for years before. And sure enough, we literally leave the session. We walk down the street, and I even remember where it was in New York, and it was a Flatiron district. And then a person comes to us and asks him for direction. And we both just stand there, and for a second, we don't say anything because we're like, okay, Michael must have paid that person to do that, because it's just not real. 

  Michael Miller: [00:30:39 - 00:31:05]

  Anastasia, I love this. And I'll tell you, I've told this story so many times over the years, anonymously, of course, of, you know, this lovely, blond, cheerful, happy woman, and everyone comes up and asks her for directions and her sort of big, stoic, dark husband, who know what? Everyone was scared to approach. And on the final day of class, boom, it happened. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:05 - 00:31:06]

  And it happened. 

  Michael Miller: [00:31:06 - 00:32:02]

  And the way we talk about it is, you know, you remember this. We talk about the. Maybe it's meditation research. And this is part of that Roi. What am I noticing as a result of meditation, even in the early days? Because things happen early on, and I say, do. Maybe it's meditation research. Look for things that change in your life. Early days. Oh, I slept really well last night. Maybe it's meditation. Oh, I had a dinner, and it just. It just seemed so delicious. I really enjoyed my food in a way that sometimes I don't pay attention. Oh, maybe it's meditation. Oh, you know, somebody said something to me that was a little bit nasty. I just kind of let it blow past. I didn't react to it. Maybe it's meditation. And I use this example of maybe it's meditation. Never had anyone in our marriage approached him to ask for directions until that. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:32:03 - 00:33:04]

  Moment was so funny. But another thing that a consequence of more regular meditation that I noticed much later was months, months later was that I had always struggled intellectually with the idea of detachment. I was like, okay, I kind of understand theoretically, but what does it really mean? I buy into it. I want to be more detached. Great idea. How do I do that? And then the way it worked for me was actually through meditation, that I simply noticed that I was much more detached from things that otherwise would cause me stress. And I just observed it, and I thought, okay, the only explanation I can possibly have because I cannot really intellectually do that. I cannot just make a decision to be detached. The only explanation is that meditation affected me that way, and it felt really, really nice, really beautiful. To be sort of calm and able to ignore things that otherwise would Trigger me normally. 

  Michael Miller: [00:33:04 - 00:36:03]

  I love to know this. This is such a great conversation because we haven't seen each other for so long and I love getting this feedback loop of update. Yes, it is. It does feel like an update. I think that's. This is very much something that people notice, that there's a little bit of spaciousness, that something happens and there's time for me to take that in, process it, and then respond, or maybe not respond, just let it pass through, as opposed to it being a little knee jerk reactive, that there's a little bit of a gap. And you know, we use a different term. We would say non attached because detached is active. Like for me to be detached, I'm kind of almost pushing away as opposed to non attached. Like if I'm attached to someone, I'm holding onto their arm and I'm gripping them in, and if they are in motion, I'm getting dragged apart or dragged around. If I'm detached, I'm kind of pushing them away, which requires effort on my part and still whatever they do affects me. Whereas if I'm non attached, you know, I can actually stand right next to this person, be in shoulder to shoulder contact. But I'm not getting dragged, I'm not getting unnecessarily impacted. If they slam into me, you know, I have the ability to respond to that. But if they move away, I've got a choice. I can follow and remain in contact or I can let some space develop. And that, that metaphor plays out very much in business decisions, that if I'm attached to outcome, then I'm constantly going to be taking the temperature and struggling and worrying and all of that. If I go into action and this again comes back to spontaneous. Right Action, I get an idea, I move that direction and then let's see, let's see what happens. I'm not attached to outcome. Goes my way. Fantastic. Fantastic. Lovely. Turned out the way I thought. That's great. Didn't turn out the way I thought. Okay, interesting. Well, here's information. And so life becomes a little bit more about. Instead of good news or bad news news, it's simply information that I can respond to or as you say, not respond to. Okay, so this is the direction that we're headed now, or this is the result of that action. All right, what do I do next? How do I take the next step as opposed to, oh, no, it didn't work out the way I wanted or the way I thought it would. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:05 - 00:37:01]

  That reminds me of another benefit I personally got from meditation. Meditation, which is at some point I came across this idea that everything evil should stop with me. And I really love the idea because I thought, okay, I shouldn't allow anything bad or evil to escalate or, you know, I don't want to be the medium for anything that I consider evil, but how do I do that? And meditation is what actually helped me a lot because of this non attachment. Right. Because if you can not get emotionally involved in things that are evil and respond in an evil way, that's how you stop it with you. Right. Without suffering necessarily. Right. Because you don't want to be the one who absorbs all the negative energy and then blows up at the end. Right. You don't want that. So to me, meditation is a tool to be that kind of person that I want to be, that does not multiply evil in the world. 

  Michael Miller: [00:37:02 - 00:39:26]

  We don't like to entertain negativity, you know, in the sense of taking it in and thinking about it and dwelling upon it and magnifying it. I find myself saying to many students, you are changing history by being a meditator. You're changing your personal family history. Because all those things that you're mad at your parents about, they inherited from their parents and their parents and their parents and their parents. The generational trauma, bad behavior, poor relationship skills, all of that gets passed down on and on and on. And when you're a meditator, you rest the body very deeply. You clear out these stresses, these impressions that we've taken on because of parents, because of personal history, because of deals that went bad, because of relationships that came apart. We've all got these impressions, but meditation unwinds and clears that out. And then you can be your own best self. You upgrade your personal experience and then that spreads. Everyone wants a peaceful world, peaceful families, peaceful neighborhood, peaceful society. No one can impose peace upon us. We're not going to get a new government in the UK and suddenly have peace. Whoever gets elected in America, it's not going to be a peaceful experience. That's not going to come from our political leaders. It's not going to come from your therapist. It's not going to come from your marriage partner. It's not going to come from your children. It doesn't come from outside of you. Only from inside can peace be found. And then, you know, everyone wants a peaceful society. Individuals have to be peaceful. Everyone wants a green forest. You can't spray paint the forest and say, okay, it's green. Need individual green trees. Individual peaceful people change their families and change their workplaces. And change the world. Absolutely. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:27 - 00:39:56]

  So it's actually absolutely fascinating for me because how to have impact is probably the most common question we deal with in the post text community. Because most of my audience have sold their businesses and now are looking for how can we be, how can we contribute in the most meaningful way? And of course we're trained to think about, oh, what, what's the biggest problem I can possibly solve for the biggest number of people? 

  Michael Miller: [00:39:56 - 00:39:56]

  Right. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:57 - 00:40:17]

  But what you are saying is that maybe that needs to be reversed and we should start with ourselves and just believe that the, that beautiful impact will happen naturally once we've found that peace inside and clarity of thought, I guess, is part of it. 

  Michael Miller: [00:40:17 - 00:44:26]

  I think you're onto it that if you create a business that is touching 100 million people, but at the core of that business, an unhappy person, some portion of that is being spread, suffering will spread. Absolutely, absolutely. You know this from the organizations you've worked in. And if somebody at the top is unhappy and stressy and a poor manager, that comes down really fast. If everybody at the bottom feels mistreated and unhappy, that's going to move the whole pyramid and everybody else is going to be impacted. It goes both directions. And so we want to work on all levels. Yes. If we can do something, if we can create a business or an organization that impacts a lot of people in a positive way, do it. Do it. Absolutely. Don't wait to find some miraculous moment of inner peace and then move into the world. Simultaneity is what we're interested in. Do both at the same time. Work on yourself. Make sure that what you are spreading into the world, into the people that you directly have contact with, is the very best. But that has to start with you. Then you lift other people up. You know, this is not the age of the monk. This is not the age of withdrawal from society. This is not about renunciation, renouncing the world and material things and turning inward and going to a cave up in the Himalayas somewhere. You know, I've spent a lot of time meditating with my eyes closed in northern India and that's a great experience. But if someone asked me, well, why did you leave that peaceful, silent place? My answer would have to be, my intention was not to leave it. My intention was to bring it with me. I want that to be brought back into the world. And so again, this we keep coming back to Roi. No one learns to meditate because they're absolutely happy in every way, except they have 40 minutes in their day. They're not sure what to do with and you know, now I learned to meditate, now I'm sorted. Now my life is perfection. Nobody learns to meditate like that. Everyone wants their life to be better as a result of meditating. So we meditate for those 20 minutes twice a day. Not for the experience that happens while we're doing it, but for the impact it has on the other 23 hours of the day. I sleep better. Fantastic. My digestion feels more balanced. Wonderful. My skin clears up. Great. My cardiovascular system is a little stronger and more efficient. Fantastic. Oh, I'm a nicer person to be around. Oh, I'm thinking all of that stuff has this spillover effect. And so we're in the time not of the renunciate but of the enlightened leader. This is desperately what the world needs is people who are fulfilled in the sense that they know themselves. They have access to that inner wellspring of bliss and stability and clarity and flexibility. And then they're taking that into the world. They're not taking their stress and their irritation and their exhaustion and spreading that. They're actually spreading that which is valuable, which is amazing. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:26 - 00:45:27]

  And brings me to my, you know, one one of my favorite topics, the direction of our personal growth. Because we, we talked about it before. People in my audience and in the post exit community become absolute masters of personal growth, optimized for business success and their personal, our personal wealth accumulation. We become so good at it and then when we are at the top we sell our businesses and suddenly that direction of personal growth a becomes irrelevant and B, we face the fact that there is so much that we had to sacrifice in our personal growth from the holistic standpoint that we need to catch up and we don't know how because we don't have the skills, we don't have the knowledge. We kind of want to have a much more fulfilled, feeling, content life, but we don't know how. And I would love to hear your thoughts on that. 

  Michael Miller: [00:45:27 - 00:51:25]

  Our society tells us in acquisition getting stuff. I'm five years old. Well, if I get the new bike, then I'll be happy. I get the new bike, I ride it for six months now. I want a skateboard. Oh, I got the skateboard. Ooh, I'm happy for a little bit. Oh, now if I can get the PlayStation. And those things bring temporary happiness and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just what they don't bring is fulfillment, lasting fulfillment. And you know, the great good fortune of someone who has exited is that it is clear that Money did not bring happiness. Many people chase it their whole lives and never make enough to be able to say, oh, shoot, this doesn't work. The great thing about selling your company for 15 or 150 and being unhappy is that you realize you're looking in the wrong place. Great, great. Realizing this is not going to do it. That is half the battle right there. Okay, now where do I go next? I'm going to get in shape. I'm going to run a marathon. No, I'm going to run super marathon. I'm going to run five marathons in five days on five continents. And somehow this is going to make me happy. I'm going to climb the highest peak on six continents. And if I can just acquire those benchmarks, then I'm somehow going to be happy. And, you know, we know that the physical is not going to. But we chase after this for a while. What's one of the biggest in our society? Lovey dovey feelings. Oh, if I just find the right groovy partner now, I'm going to be happy. And I've got my 150 and I've got this person who I sacrificed to my job, who's bitter from years of neglect and I'll offload that person and get somebody new and shoot, that doesn't last for very long. You know, four or five years. I realized, oh, darn it, this wasn't it either. Every pop song told me that this was going to be my source of happiness and it turns out not to be. And we all know it to be true. We all know it to be true. By the way, I'm speaking from what I hear from our clients, and I have, you know, three clients who are on the, in the Forbes Top 500 list who have families and stuff, homes, you know, like, if I can just get the right architecture, I'm gonna be happy. If I can have architecture here and in the country and maybe on the continent, then I'll be happy. And none of that works. None of that works. The jet and the yacht and all of that stuff. Having those things. Okay, what comes next? Change my mental state. How do I do it? Maybe I try alcohol, you know, really good wine. And if I can have just the right amount with a good meal, then I'm gonna be happy for a while. That doesn't work out pretty quickly. So, you know, I'll start with some gummies and a little bit of THC applied medically. This is going to bring me lasting. Oh, that didn't work either. It was psychedelics. If I can microdose the right amount, I'm just going to carefully work out what is just the right balance for me. And none of this works. It's closer actually. This is really interesting. Addiction, a spiritual search. Addiction is a spiritual search. What am I trying to find? My spirit, my essence. Money didn't do it. Love didn't do it. Sex didn't do it. Being fit didn't do it. Having experiences and pushing myself physically didn't do it. Even altered consciousness didn't do it. What does it expanded consciousness. I don't want to alter my consciousness, I want to expand it. I want to be inclusive of all possibilities. I want to be in contact with the deepest, most stable, still settled place inside of me and at the same time be engaged and alert and interacting and prospective and in the world. 200%. Not merely 100% spiritual happiness, not only 100% material acquisition, but 200% all of life. All of life. And that expansion, that is the person who's found what they're looking for. And then other people see it and they think, how do I get some of that? And then you people will do anything for someone like that. That's how you become a real leader, is by having wholeness and people so look to that because the world is so clearly broken and so clearly far, far, far from this. All these so called leaders who are just followers of a broken collective. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:26 - 00:51:46]

  So walk me through how you would help someone to get from the point when they have achieved material success. They had that revelation that okay, money doesn't bring happiness, maybe also they did some marathons along the way. So they kind of know by experience. 

  Michael Miller: [00:51:46 - 00:51:50]

  You should be fit by the way. Absolutely be fit. I'm not saying don't take care of. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:50 - 00:52:14]

  Your body, but let's just talk about material success. They tick the box. I got my financial freedom because that's number one motivator for people to try to get financial success through building a business in my experience. So the person is there. How would you guide him to get to that 200% person you just described? 

  Michael Miller: [00:52:15 - 00:52:59]

  So you learn to meditate, which is easy. You know, you came along for four days in a row, two hours each day, and boom, at the end of those four days you know how to meditate. And then you're on a 20 minute, twice a day program. So you get up in the morning and you do a morning meditation. And then kind of late afternoon, early evening, you sit down again, you do another 20 minutes, you turn inward, you make contact with that place Place inside. And then to whatever degree that you stabilize it, you take it out into the world. So we have this beautiful image of dyeing cloth. So they still dye cloth, by the way, you keep trying to come along on one of our retreats. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:52:59 - 00:52:59]

  I know. 

  Michael Miller: [00:52:59 - 00:53:01]

  And we have to come. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:53:01 - 00:53:02]

  This so amazing. 

  Michael Miller: [00:53:02 - 00:59:08]

  You have to come. So we'll go to India together and we'll see how they still die. Code in the way that they have for thousands of years. You take a sheet of raw, pure white cotton, you dip it into a vat of vegetable dye and when you bring it out, it's that amazing yellow, orange, saffron color. And then you take that cloth and you put it in the sun and the sun dries the clothes and as the cloth dries, the color starts to fade. So this is vegetable dye, not chemical dyes. It dries and it fades and it dries and it fades. By the time the cloth is completely dry, there's almost no color left. So then you dip it in again and then you bring it out and you put it in the sun and it dries and it fades. But this time there's a little more, a little more color. Dip it in just for a few minutes, let it fully get infused, bring it out, look for the sun, put it in the hot sun. Don't hide away in some cool dark place that just slows it down into the sun dry. Fade a little more color, Dip, fade a little more, dip, fade a little more. Day comes, you dip it in, you bring it out. The cloth doesn't fade, it's stabilized. So it's a very interesting thing that this alternation is important, this ability to turn inward, touch this pure state inside and then engage in the world. So I don't say to people, you know, go away and sit in a cave for six months, that is just like soaking the cloth in the dye, you're going to bring it out and it's going to fade anyway. You need the alternation between depth and activity. So you know, there's lots of tools in, in the, the Vedic worldview that we can, we can access, you know, Ayurveda, the ancient system of healthcare that comes from the same knowledge, has so much to say. So Ayurveda literally means science of non death, which you know, everybody loves because it's all, it's all about longevity. But there's a little add on relevant longevity because simply living a long time but doing nothing of worth is not going to be supported by nature. You're just hanging around the earth, consuming resources that need to go to the next generation. The support of nature gets withdrawn. Relevant longevity is about how do I stay, stay fluid and flexible and active and able to give in an appropriate way. And so there's all kinds of things depending on your psychophysical type, your mind, body type, when's best to get up in the morning, what kind of exercise is actually best that will create that relevant longevity for most. Many, many people are over exercising when it comes to having their physiology, their nervous system in really good, good balance. You want to be comfortable through the years, not pound your joints to the point where you have to replace them all. So, you know, there's something about that having the nervous system attuned so that you are available to the world. What is it that you're consuming? And this is something we put a lot of attention on with our clients and that, you know, food comes to mind and this is something that people care what's happening with my microbiome and all of this. But you know, what are you consuming as far as media? What are you consuming as far as how you interact with your children? What is it you put your attention on? Because anything you put your attention on becomes you. You become what you see. And what you see is uplifted and gets stronger. So am I thinking about and talking about the disastrous politics of most of the Western world right now, or am I doing something to try and make that better? Am I thinking about these awful conflicts that are happening without actually doing something to try to help people or try to cast a new perspective on it for young people who need to see the world for what it is and take the energy they have and use that to the best purposes, what am I doing? This starts to create a sense of giving and what you give, you get. If I go into the world in a stress state, in that hyperactive, hyper reactive state of how do I get, how do I take, how do I consume? Then life is always going to feel like not enough. So you meditate and you engage in the world in the very best way. You get good rest, you don't do too much, you don't strain. The world is so strained and you see it in people's face. One of the things that happens when they learn to meditate. I've had three, by the way. You were not one of these three women, but I have three women who've come after learning to meditate and say, someone accused me of getting Botox because they relaxed, because they relax. You know, we hold so much tension in the face and especially in the amount of time we spend on screens and you see people just open up and soften in such a gorgeous, gorgeous way as a result of not straining. So I've started to answer your question. How have we done so far as far as what to do? 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [00:59:08 - 00:59:50]

  Amazing. Let's get even more practical. Okay, so if you were to design a toolbox for somebody who is going through that transition, who wants to be that 200% ultimate leader that you described and actually contribute their very best to the world while being fulfilled and happy themselves. Right. That balance we all want, but so hard find, so hard to achieve. If you were to design a toolbox for somebody who already is very, you know, masterful in certain things, as I described before, things that are relevant for, for accumulating things. So what would be in that toolbox? Meditation for sure. 

  Michael Miller: [00:59:50 - 01:00:04]

  Meditation for sure. Yeah. Getting on a, on a health and a diet program that way. You would say? I would say because it's been around for 5,000 years. It's, you know, it's, it's. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:04 - 01:00:23]

  Can we talk a bit more about. I'm a big fan, as you know. We've done Panchakarma and then and all of those things. But I'd love you to talk about it and why you think it's so important. Why is it better, for example, than following some of more popular biohackers protocols? 

  Michael Miller: [01:00:23 - 01:01:34]

  Yeah, I mean, I think it is. There's a history to it and it works at the level of consciousness instead of just from the level of the physical. There's this, there's this amazing particular recipe for a kind of medicated ghee. So ghee is refined butter, clarified butter and medicated ghee. Ghee as a delivery device takes herbs into your body in a way that they can be absorbed and processed and made use of. This is often a technique of using ghee with different herbs in order to deliver medicines to the body. And there's one particular recipe where you make up the medicine in a clay pot and you seal the pot and you bury it the way I heard it was for 100 years in the roots of one particular tree. And after 100 years, then the medicine is ready. Now, this has not been scientifically tested. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:01:34 - 01:01:37]

  100 year old butter. 

  Michael Miller: [01:01:37 - 01:01:38]

  100 year old butter. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:01:38 - 01:01:40]

  Something to get excited about. 

  Michael Miller: [01:01:40 - 01:04:13]

  How did this come about? Someone cognized this. Someone knew at the level of consciousness, they knew what it was like to be those herbs sitting in ghee for that amount of time. Now this, I'm stepping way out here, but it's fascinating to think about this knowledge is not at the level merely of the scientific process. This is at the level of I know from some broader, greater, deeper level what is going to happen. And as a result, I can change your body at the cellular level in a way that, you know, putting on, you know, some tracking ring and watching my heart rate variability is not giving me enough information. All of these tracking devices, people get obsessed with data and they don't actually listen to themselves. And they certainly don't have the consciousness of these great masters from a thousand years ago or 3,000 years ago who really understood something. I was just in India doing some work with our Ayurvedic doctors and amazingly, you know, pure vegetarians. And that's, you know, something that is culturally very appropriate to their, to their family and had just diagnosed woman and prescribed to her goat stew. And so they were every day very carefully making this stew with goat meat because it was this certain time of year and this was available and this was exactly what her body needed. It was something that they're not interested in at all, but it was something that was right for this person in this moment. So it's so individualized what is right for you given what you're doing, given your body type, given your history and what you've eaten before and the current season of the year, all of that stuff. It's individualized and personalized to a level that's really, really different. It is, let's be clear. It's not easy to find a great practitioner. And we'll talk about my doctor's going to be here in London and you'll love meeting with her. I would love to do that. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:04:13 - 01:04:56]

  You know, when I first encountered deep dive into Ayurvedic science, I went to India for six weeks and stayed in one of those Ayurvedic centers. And I was shocked by a lot of things, including for example, talking about individual or advice. They told me I should actually eat late in the day before going to sleep. And I thought it was so against the common rules because they said for your particular, particular body. And they studied me for six weeks, so I assume they understood how I work. And they studied me very carefully and they said it's very important for you because otherwise you cannot sleep through the whole night because your metabolism is very fast. 

  Michael Miller: [01:04:56 - 01:04:57]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:04:57 - 01:05:01]

  And you need actually to have food before going to bed. 

  Michael Miller: [01:05:01 - 01:05:01]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:01 - 01:05:03]

  And I thought, okay, thank you. 

  Michael Miller: [01:05:04 - 01:05:07]

  Great bowl of ice cream, please. Right. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:08 - 01:05:08]

  Advice. 

  Michael Miller: [01:05:09 - 01:05:30]

  My doctor said, I'm an ice cream fan. And I said, you know, Ayurveda doesn't really like ice cream generally that much. And he said, no, no, it's okay for you to have ice cream in Delhi in the summertime. I still have it sometimes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:31 - 01:05:38]

  So going back to our toolbox, we have meditation, we have lifestyle which is aligned with Ayurvedic rules. 

  Michael Miller: [01:05:39 - 01:12:29]

  Yes, we have sustainable exercise. So not beating up the body, not working too hard, but doing something that is good for the structure in the sense of posture or alignment and is good for keeping flexibility and joints kind of free and juicy. You know, keeping the body moving is really important and we want to do that. This is part of being inspiring to others as well. If we look like we're falling to pieces, it's hard actually in the society that we live in now to be a great leader. You know, these things are judged and if we take some care around ourselves, it doesn't put a barrier between us and other, other people. And we want to. So meditation is expanding our consciousness and it's bringing us into balance. It's like it's polishing the tool or sharpening the blade, but then that needs to be applied. And so often we find ourselves, especially with real change makers doing more one on one work. Gillian was just having a call yesterday with young woman who started a company in the UK and has moved it to Silicon Valley and doing really interesting work in battery technology and is regular meditator and comes away on retreats and is doing the work but just wasn't feeling like it was translating into action. So there's a beautiful story, the Bhagavad Gita, the central chapters of the Mahabharata, the great story of, of ancient India. And there's this moment in Bhagavad Gita, there's about to be a great war and there's 2 million people on one side and 6 million people on the other. And this a mile of no man's land in between. And the general of the two million person army rides out in his chariot into the no man's land and looks out across at the opposing army, which include his cousins. And he doesn't yet know it, but his half brother and his grandfather and his most valued teacher and friends. You know, these are the people he has to fight against. This is what it has come to. And he has this real moment of crisis where he throws down his bow and he turns to his chariot driver who is God incarnate Krishna. He turns to him and he says, you told me that killing is always a sin and you are now asking me to fight against the people that I love in the world most. And I won't do it until you can resolve this for me. Explain how you can tell me both of these things. And Krishna smiles because he always speaks smilingly and he says this beautiful Sanskrit phrase, yogastha kuru karamani, which means established in being. Perform action. And this is everything that we're talking about today. Find your enlightenment, make that connection become fulfilled, then do something. And in the case of this woman that Jillian is working with, she needs to take some hard decisions in her business and make a move. Somebody else needs to start a new company that's going to be much smaller than they were in before, but actually is in alignment with where they are now and will be doing something important. Someone else needs to take two years off and travel and not stay in five star resorts because that's not traveling, that's flying bubble to bubble. That's not the kind of travel that this person needs. What this person needs is to have their feet on the ground and engaged with people that they would never have contact with otherwise and actually experience the world and see step into the unknown. There is stuff to do for everyone and most people need a little bit of guidance. And sometimes that's a great business coach and sometimes that's a therapist. And we as teachers find ourselves playing that role, especially with people who are high performers who are in positions like your exit community who either have done the great thing or are on the cusp of about to do another great thing. And it's worth listening. There's a great. You probably know this TED talk by Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat Pray Love and she does a talk about what do you do when you know your best work is behind you? You know, she wrote this massive blockbuster and she says, I know nothing I ever do will be that big again. So how do I find meaning now? And it doesn't have to be big to be meaningful, but it might be. And what you need to do is learn to tune into this and follow it and take action. Established in being without being established. You know, we're just firing off every direction and we're out of touch. We're engaged in that addiction of acquisition. If we have fulfillment, then we can take that fulfillment to the marketplace. We can take it on a journey, we can take it on an adventure and deliver it to others. And that most often requires some coaching. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:12:30 - 01:13:27]

  So basically going back to my community. Yes, or that avatar I described a person who sold the business, achieved material success, now dreams about that fulfilled, impactful person. He can be in the future or she. So you would say they need to meditate, they need to align their lifestyle with, in your case, ayurvedic wisdom. Achieve that fulfillment for themselves by going in and out in a way, doing enough introspection, then exploring the world, learning from the world, bringing it back up until the moment when they are established, as you said, which is basically they know that they are fulfilled. They know who they are, are. They know what they want. Right. Not necessarily what the rest of the world thinks they should want. 

  Michael Miller: [01:13:27 - 01:13:28]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:13:28 - 01:13:43]

  And then from that place they can go and make that amazing impact in the world. Yes, but not before. Because if they do it before, that's not going to be as powerful, it's not going to bring them fulfillment. 

  Michael Miller: [01:13:43 - 01:17:16]

  I would say there's some simultaneity again going on that we struggle, start to move, we start to take steps and that that creates a feedback loop. Oh, I did this. Oh, that seems to be interesting. I'm going to continue. Oh, actually that's not interesting at all. I'm not just waiting around for some moment to happen when now I feel ready to step out. And as you ascend, you can always see further. So you're never going to feel like you're in the right place, you know, always you're going to see that there's something more. And that's a positive, positive thing. You know, we want to have that sense of greater expansion and there always being something, something more. But you, you absolutely, I think you define that really, really well. And then where are we in our life stage? In the Vedic knowledge, they call this the ashramas, the four ashramas. So first is Brahmachari, being a student. And it goes up to age 30 actually that, you know, you are learning and exploring and figuring out who you are and what you want to do in the world. And then at the age of 30 or so or so, you cross over into Grihasta. And this is the householder stage. This is the society builder, this is the culture expander. This is the one who's creating wealth for themselves and for others. And that lasts from 30 to 60 that I'm expanding and really very much engaged. Then at 60 we move to Vanna Prasta, which literally means forest dweller. Now the forest dweller has not completely withdrawn. They've just taken a step back into an advisory position. So you are the matriarch or you are the patriarch of the family. And people come, come to you for wise and trusted counsel and you sit on a board and You're a non exec member of that board and you really are engaged and mentoring in that sense. But you have this body of knowledge that it's more important now to be passing on to others instead of just using for yourself. Now many people who exit will enter this stage a little bit earlier, but there's something about a bit of gray, you know, a bit of miles on the clock, a few years that people are receptive to wisdom in a different way. And so as someone who's exited moves into their 50s and 60s to start to orient themselves to how do I mentor, how do I become a leader in the field, how do I offer up what I've learned to others? Then at age 90 Sannyasi, then you just bail out. Now it's all about you and you get to rest up until about the age of 120. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:17:17 - 01:17:22]

  So it's better to take very good care of your health if you want to ever experience that. 

  Michael Miller: [01:17:24 - 01:17:56]

  This is, this is the ideal, this is, this is kind of how we aim ourselves and then we adapt. We adapt to what the world delivers to us. Because you know, that's what the stability of inner fulfillment delivers is infinite adaptability. When I'm stable in here, then anything that comes out, comes toward me, I can adjust, I can't be made, I can't be broken by what happens out there. I can absolutely adjust and adapt to. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:17:56 - 01:17:59]

  It in a non attached way. 

  Michael Miller: [01:18:00 - 01:18:02]

  Right. Well done. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:18:05 - 01:18:40]

  So one of the problems I see in the post exit community is that when people sell the business and then they suddenly face the necessity to understand themselves and to do introspection and to learn new skills, often without realizing it, they get very scared and they just run back into a more familiar situation which becomes a comfort zone over the years which is just building another business or getting involved with the business and kind of doing the same thing because otherwise it's just too confusing. 

  Michael Miller: [01:18:40 - 01:18:40]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:18:41 - 01:19:28]

  And scary. And there's not enough guidance out there and there's lots of guidance which seems too much religious or there's too much mysticism around it. So what, what, what's your view on how that person, person should be guided to not get scared and run back, but to start that very different journey and how that person could be encouraged to believe that they will achieve an even better success, maybe defined differently if they dare to search for that different kind of expansion or growth. 

  Michael Miller: [01:19:30 - 01:21:15]

  It's very important to be uncomfortable with a little discomfort, to be comfortable with some discomfort that if what I'm trying is to just feel okay, I'll say this about meditation sometimes. Oh, my meditation was really uncomfortable. I had some feelings bubbling up. I had thoughts that I didn't like. I say, well, good. You know, stuff is being processed. Put clothes in the laundry. It's not all pretty during the process. Don't confuse the process with the outcome. You know, meditation, there might be some scrubbing that needs to go on. Some old stress needs to clear out before I have the experience of feeling better after meditation. You know, sometimes exercise is a little bit uncomfortable, but afterwards, I'm always glad that I spent that time in the Pilates studio. It might be uncomfortable to engage in something new. That doesn't mean it's not good. Because always the very best things have come from stepping into the unknown. Every. Every person who's built a business didn't know who was going to work, even if you believed in it. Absolutely. At some very basic, very profound level. We don't know if this is going to work. Who knows? And it was that. Who knows? But I'm going to leap anyway. That really brings the excitement. But then we get a little bit lazy emotionally and intellectually. Oh, but I like it when it's going well. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:21:15 - 01:21:15]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [01:21:15 - 01:23:00]

  You know, it's why you go to the same restaurant every week. Because I know I can order this. It's going to be fine. And, you know, I'll always default to this because at least I know what's happening. It's why people love a chain store, because they know what they're getting. And for most people, being comfortable, not stepping into the unknown is what they desire. And what do I say to the person who's made and sold a company and now expresses that they're looking for comfort? I say, really? Really. Come on. Come on. Like you're smarter than that. You know that that's not actually. That's going to be uncomfortable. That's going to be uncomfortable really fast. Because comfort, the word for this in Sanskrit is santosha, which means contentedness. And we would say the enemy of enlightenment is premature contentedness. You know, I'm all. I feel. I feel all. Okay. I've kind of arranged my life to be really comfortable and easy. And you're going to get. Get bored. You're going to blow up your marriage. You're going to do something stupid financially. You're going to just do something to feel interested and engaged and alive. So instead, be uncomfortable. And being uncomfortable might mean doing nothing for a while, just collecting information. And if I'm used to doing and achieving and all I'm Doing is accepting, exploring. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:23:01 - 01:23:02]

  It's hard. 

  Michael Miller: [01:23:02 - 01:23:11]

  That's hard. That's hard. But it's always the good work requires some effort. You know, it's. There's nothing wrong with it being hard. And, you know, your audience knows that. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:23:11 - 01:23:11]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [01:23:11 - 01:23:17]

  If, if you really stop and think about it, hard is going to be good. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:23:17 - 01:23:18]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [01:23:18 - 01:23:29]

  Comfortable. Look out, look out. Because if you're comfortable, that's when. That's when the vultures move in. Yeah. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:23:29 - 01:23:49]

  I guess I like seeing when people take some time to heal after the whole marathon of running a business. I think it's also very important. But then they get bored and then exactly as you say, sometimes very destructive forces show up in their lives, lead to tragedies. 

  Michael Miller: [01:23:49 - 01:24:01]

  We get addicted to a adrenaline. Absolutely. And, you know, many of the people you work with will have been running on caffeine and adrenaline for decades. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:24:02 - 01:24:18]

  And we do become adrenaline junkie and also dopamine junkie in some senses. But one neurotransmitter I'm interested in is actually serotonin, because serotonin helps, Helps us to understand that we have enough. 

  Michael Miller: [01:24:18 - 01:24:18]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:24:18 - 01:24:38]

  And I think before moving into a more spiritual journey, it's extremely important to also feel that you have enough in terms of the success you chased before, enough money, have enough respect from others. You've proved yourself. 

  Michael Miller: [01:24:38 - 01:24:38]

  Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:24:38 - 01:24:41]

  And that's kind of serotonin territory, isn't it? Isn't it? 

  Michael Miller: [01:24:41 - 01:25:18]

  Absolutely. We're talking about the endocannabinoids, all of the, you know, cannabis is a poor imitation of anandamide and dopamine and serotonin, these endogenously internally produced bliss chemistry. That is what we see when we measure a meditator, no matter what they're thinking about or feeling. You know, even the person who's, you know, thinking about that stupid zoom call and that thing that person said and how could they. And that. So terrible. What we see is their body flush with bliss chemistry with all three of them. Yeah, absolutely. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:25:18 - 01:25:19]

  Oh, interesting. 

  Michael Miller: [01:25:19 - 01:25:30]

  Absolutely. And, you know, that's natural chemistry of the body. It's not natural to be stressed and to be anxious. It's usual. It's the. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:25:30 - 01:25:34]

  For a long time. Right. So, yeah, short, short, short stresses. 

  Michael Miller: [01:25:34 - 01:29:27]

  It is, it is, it is biologically correct to respond to a demand. And that might mean elevated adrenaline for a short time, but it's not for a week and it's not for a day and it's not even for an hour, you know, because you can't run away. A bear can run at about 35 miles an hour for evidently an Unlimited amount of time. Like, you know, can just do it and do it and do it. Usain Bolt can run about 23, 24 miles an hour for about a minute. We can't get away from anything. We're terrible runners. Our fight flight is not designed to be long term, it's designed to be short term. And if some demand comes, we want to respond to it, but then come back to normality. And normal is the neurochemistry of a toddler. They're happy, they fall down, they scrape their knee, they cry for a minute and then they're happy and they toddle off. And this is the emotional and neurochemical flexibility that a meditator starts to develop. And this baseline that we return to, what becomes our new normal, that basically happy state, not excitatory, you know, not like woo hoo, high five kind of happiness, but serenity and inner contentedness. Yeah, yeah, this is really, really important. And then my social status and my postal code and my bank balance and all those things are all interesting and enjoyable and I like all of those things, you know, And I want my message to be really clear here that I'm not anti material. Like I enjoy some nice things and it is right to enjoy those things, but they don't tell me anything about who I am. I know who I am. As a meditator, you know who you are. It's why you can sit in that chair and talk with the insightfulness the you do with the people in the way that you do, because you've done the work over time and you have created that stability and you've been in the world and engaged. You've got the combination, you've got the experience, you've got the. You've been on the journey, you haven't just, you know, sat in a cave. It's easy to be the Buddha on the mountaintop. Take the Buddha off the mountaintop. Then it gets hard, you know, take the monk out of the mountains and put him in central London and get three kids to school on time and make sure that then you're on your zoom call at the right time and manage to get yourself some lunch and deal with the workers downstairs and the neighbor who's being a bit of a pain. And then, you know, try and have a romantic moment somewhere along the way. And you know, the monk can't handle that. Actually. It's easy to be enlightened in a vacuum. But get in the world, that's where the real test comes from. And that's where that, that ability to return. Biologists call it the return to homeostasis. Homeostasis, balance. It is correct to respond when we get knocked off center. But then what we want is to come back quickly to let let go and move on. Let go, let go, let go. Meditation. It's a practice of letting go. Like something goes great, let go, something goes terrible, let go. Just move on. What's next? What's next? 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:29:28 - 01:29:33]

  Beautiful. So we have meditation, we have Ayurveda. 

  Michael Miller: [01:29:34 - 01:29:36]

  We have sustainable exercise. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:29:36 - 01:29:38]

  Sustainable exercise. 

  Michael Miller: [01:29:38 - 01:29:40]

  We have wise and trusted counsel. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:29:40 - 01:29:40]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [01:29:40 - 01:32:08]

  We have someone that we can turn to as a mentor. And we have giving back in, you know, in whatever way that manifests for you. You know, some people that's volunteering, some people that's making monetary contributions, though those can be kind of easy, you know, and people with, you know, we know that the numbers are really clear that people with more wealth give a significantly less, smaller percentage. They don't feel it. And people with less actually give a bigger percentage and feel it and feel connected to a community in a different way. And we want to feel connected to a community. So developing community is a really good thing. You know, we want to be careful and as diverse of a community as we can create for ourselves. You know, it's. It's the stratification of our society and. And the bubbles. We mentioned this before, the bubbles that we live in, you know, it. It creates a distorted view of the world and I think especially a responsibility for those who have more resources to recognize and really have the experience of people who don't have that, because that's the greatest proportion of the world. You know, that's the way most people are experiencing the world. And if it's very easy for life to get organized in a way that I feel a little distance from people who are experiencing life differently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, again, is something that develops really easily and really naturally and really joyfully when we're connected to ourselves and when we're looking for the opportunity, you know, to have a chat with the postie is revealing of the world in. In a way that creates threads of connection. And that community. You and I were talking about this before we started recording about, you know, giving back more than just to your family, you know, because the. It's so easy to be. For family, to be an extension of me. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:32:08 - 01:32:09]

  Yeah. 

  Michael Miller: [01:32:09 - 01:33:50]

  You know, oh, I'm going to take care of something other than me. I'm going to spend a lot of time on my nails. You know, I'm going to get beautiful manicures. It's good to take care of something other than me. These nails aren't me. Right. There's something else. I'm taking care of myself. If I, you know, my daughter is 10 and, like, it is all about, how can I. How can I help her figure out a great life for herself? And that's a little bit of an extension of myself. And I want. I. I'm. It is something I challenge myself to do, is find ways to give to something broader than just what I feel connected to. It's interesting. When we go to India, I, you know, there. There are a lot of people who live on. On the street there in very, you know, very extreme circumstances. And, And I say to the retreat participants, you know, if you feel moved to offer a little bit, you know, I think that's a. That's a great thing. You know, we. We stay in one particular area, and there are a few characters there who, who, you know, I've become friendly with over the years. And, you know, I say it's, you know, you feel connected to. To one of these people, give them a little bit, and then give a little bit to somebody you don't feel connected to at all. You know, like, actually stretch yourself emotionally outside of what feels most, again, most comfortable. Most comfortable. How can I get a little bit uncomfortable? 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:33:51 - 01:34:10]

  Yeah. So talking about traveling and the importance of exploring the world, what kind of traveling you think would be the most beneficial for someone who is on this path of becoming that better, more impactful person? 

  Michael Miller: [01:34:10 - 01:37:07]

  Yeah. The things that I've seen people do often have to do with giving back. You know, there's so many amazing organizations that will put together a combination of, you know, how can you give monetarily, but how can you also be on the ground and see what's happening as a result, instead of being a little bit distant and so to go some, you know, to contribute to an organization and then go and build the library with them, you know, is a really different thing because you meet people who are there, you see the work, you get to do something, and there's something about physically being involved and engaged. You know, I love going to a place and seeing the sites, but I think it's easy to sort of have a list of the sites that you want to see and, you know, kind of taking them off. And, okay, I have the satisfaction of having done everything in this city that I was supposed to, but I didn't go and sit in a cafe and actually strike up a conversation with the barista and get a little. Or go to the little Local market and negotiate for a pair of, you know, flip flops that you don't want. Yeah. Why does my daughter want these? Okay, fine, fine. Let's get the flip flops and, you know, deliberately overpay a little bit because it's always good to pay your tourist tax, you know, to actually be in the world that you are in and settle in for a little bit. One of my. We took about six months and traveled around India. It was a real moment of things were going well. Would have been just a couple years after you and I met. Things were going really well in both London and in New York. And it was to Jillian's credit. She said. She said it all feels a little bit uncomfortable or a little, little too comfortable. Too comfortable, too comfortable. And that is uncomfortable. We need to shake things up a bit. And so we just stopped. We stopped and we said, we're going away. We need to do what we're telling other people to do. And we went and traveled around India for about six months. And it was the places where we stopped. And, you know, there's so many amazing things to see, but when we stopped and spent three days in a town and became a little bit local to whatever degree that you can, when you don't speak the language and all and you look completely different, all that, you're not going to become a local, but you get to witness with a little bit more. More depth. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:37:07 - 01:37:11]

  Yeah. And maybe experience also, rather than just observe. 

  Michael Miller: [01:37:11 - 01:37:22]

  Yes, yes. I think you're absolutely right. To live in instead of just skate over is a really, really different, different thing. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:37:22 - 01:37:29]

  I know that you like to combine meditation, breath work, but you haven't mentioned breath work today. 

  Michael Miller: [01:37:29 - 01:39:22]

  Yeah, I think, you know, breath work works at the level of the physical. And so it's a good way to get in for some people. So pranayama. Prana means breath or life energy, and yama means administration. So pranayama is the administration of the breath to prepare for meditation. So we use that very specifically prior to meditating. When people have been meditating for a while, they can learn this additional technique. Breath work on its own, I think, is, you know, until someone learns to meditate, it's a good. It's a good entryway. It's something, you know, you can watch some YouTube video videos and get a little bit. And even better to work with somebody a little more closely. It is using the body to impact consciousness. It's more powerful to go the other way. Consciousness is the source. Consciousness. Consciousness creates the body. Consciousness becomes the. The body. Consciousness conceives the body. So it's coming from there. You can go the other way. So if I squeeze my fist really tight and I let go, I actually feel a little bit more relaxed inside. If I'm creating the circumstances by which I'm always relaxed inside, then I don't find myself. Myself tight like that. And so I'm a fan of breath work. And. And it would be second on the list for me after meditation in the sense that it's a supporting mechanism and it's accessible. And I think people should do it if they're drawn by it. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:39:23 - 01:39:34]

  How do you define consciousness? That this topic is discussed a lot now in connection with the AI. Difficult developments because we suspect that's all we'll have left. 

  Michael Miller: [01:39:34 - 01:39:35]

  Yeah. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:39:36 - 01:39:42]

  And people are trying to figure out what is it exactly we're gonna have. Because we want to hold on to it as much as we can. 

  Michael Miller: [01:39:42 - 01:39:43]

  How do we keep in mind. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:39:43 - 01:39:44]

  Yeah, but what is it? 

  Michael Miller: [01:39:44 - 01:42:28]

  It's already not ours. Consciousness is awareness. Consciousness exists. I'm conscious, you're conscious. Our pets have some consciousness. You know. A sunflower demonstrates some of the aspects of consciousness. It responds to stimuli in the environment as it follows the sun across the sky. Consciousness exists. Modern physics tells us that there is one thing in the universe. There's one whole indivisible thing, the unified field. If we break down all of this stuff, it's not stuff. It's not individual things. It is a field of energy and a potentiality that when you put your attention on it rises up and forms what seems to be stuff. But actually all of this is just a wave on that underlying feeling field. You're a very elegantly complex wave on an underlying field of energy and intelligence. And that field is conscious. It is consciousness. Because consciousness exists and there's only one thing. So a quality of that one thing must be consciousness. It's not Is something conscious or unconscious. It's how conscious is it. And so far, the human nervous system has the greatest complexity and therefore is the most developed expression of consciousness that exists in everything. You know, this chair has consciousness, but it's pretty sticky, you know, heavy, not very adaptive. Consciousness. AI is starting to be more expressive. But it's still mechanical. It's still mechanical. Let's see. Let's see. It's. It's an exciting moment in the evolution of consciousness because what it asks of us is to be more creative and more generative and more perspective and less merely reactive. It's going to ask more of humanity. And that's, you know, that's an exciting time to live in as opposed to, you know, just kind of cruise along consuming stuff. We get to be more. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:42:34 - 01:42:38]

  Do you have a sense of purpose? And how do you define it? Purpose? 

  Michael Miller: [01:42:38 - 01:42:39]

  Me personally. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:42:39 - 01:42:40]

  Me personally. 

  Michael Miller: [01:42:41 - 01:44:13]

  Yeah. It turns out that I never wanted to be a teacher if my parents were teachers. And so, you know, maybe it wasn't your DNA. One way of responding to that is to try to not be that. It kind of came to me, you know, I'd done a lot of different things in, in my life and if you looked at my CV or you looked at my. If I had everything that I've done on my LinkedIn profile, you think, what is this guy doing? Like all over the place until I became a meditation teacher. And then suddenly it made sense. You know, I was an actor for a little while and you know, I can stand in front of a group of 600 people and give a 20 minute talk and I feel comfortable enough to do that because of those skills that I developed. And I worked in PR and I know how to deal with press and that turned out to be a useful skill. And I create big educational events for thousands of people. And now I can put together a retreat with 80 people in some far flung place. I've got this weird amalgamated skill set that came together and it was like, oh, this is what I'm meant to do. What's my purpose? You. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:44:14 - 01:44:15]

  Thank you. 

  Michael Miller: [01:44:16 - 01:44:18]

  In, in the sense that. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:44:18 - 01:44:19]

  As a compliment. 

  Michael Miller: [01:44:19 - 01:45:12]

  Absolutely. And, and, and I, I take it reflectively as that. In that you're doing what I hope meditation brings to every meditator, to whatever degree it does, which is, makes them better and happier and more able to give. And here you are doing this thing like this is this refractive moment of oh my gosh, this is exactly why I do this. So that to whatever degree I can help someone on their journey trigger those changes that then they can, they can pass that on to others. And so I'm a facilitator. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:45:14 - 01:45:21]

  And how would you define purpose for everyone universally? What is it? 

  Michael Miller: [01:45:21 - 01:45:42]

  It's about creating connection. It's about experiencing unity. The oneness of everything and nature. The universe is evolving. It's getting better. Even though there's bumpiness along the way. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:45:42 - 01:45:43]

  Doesn't seem that way. 

  Michael Miller: [01:45:43 - 01:46:37]

  Yeah, I know sometimes you look at the front page of the paper and it does not look that way. Look at the front page of the paper versus the theoretical front page of the paper from a thousand years ago, you know, the dark ages. Today's front page looks a lot better actually. Yeah, That's a whole lot better. If we draw back enough. The world is evolving. It is getting better. Our purpose is to contribute to that evolution in the very best way that we can. You know, to lift up others, to make things a little smoother, to create expansion of happiness for ourselves and everyone around us because of the feeling of happiness, the feeling of bliss, that is the experience of unity, of oneness, of wholeness. And if we're experiencing that, then we know we're on the right track. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:46:38 - 01:46:42]

  Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Beautifully said. 

  Michael Miller: [01:46:45 - 01:46:47]

  What? What an amazing conversation. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:46:48 - 01:46:50]

  I'm not done with you yet. 

  Michael Miller: [01:46:53 - 01:46:54]

  Excellent. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:46:55 - 01:46:57]

  But I do know that you need to be. 

  Michael Miller: [01:46:57 - 01:46:59]

  Oh, gosh, I sure do. Yes. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:46:59 - 01:47:09]

  Then I'm wrapping up. Even though I wouldn't, but I'm wrapping up. So how do you want to be remembered? 

  Michael Miller: [01:47:12 - 01:47:55]

  Well, none of us get remembered for very long. I hope that the people that I come in contact with remember a positive experience. Remember a feeling of uplift and a feeling of connection and positivity. And, you know, if there's more detail to that, then that's great. But really, it's at that feeling level of. I hope that people. It's the campsite rule. You know, if you go camping, leave the campsite nicer than when you found it. And I hope that's everyone's experience when they encounter me. 

  Anastasia Koroleva: [01:47:55 - 01:48:00]

  Absolutely. But I'm personally so grateful for you for making me a better person. 

  Michael Miller: [01:48:01 - 01:48:10]

  Well, thank you for that. It means so much to know it sa.