Laurent Vernhes. Quality-Obsessed Exited Founder: "Business is a Form of Art"
Episode - 23
Laurent Vernhes. Quality-Obsessed Exited Founder: "Business is a Form of Art"
Laurent Vernhes. He spent 20 years shaping Tablet Hotels into a tech and luxury travel icon, culminating in its acquisition by the discerning Michelin Group 4 years ago. Now, Laurent is channeling his expertise and refined taste into launching a wine company committed to delivering the world’s finest wines at fair prices. In this episode, we explore the art of building luxury brands, quality obsession, and treating business as an artistic endeavor. A deep and independent thinker, Laurent shares his life lessons with us in a beautifully vulnerable way.
What We Discussed:
00:00:00: Introduction
00:01:23: About Laurent's Thought Process and Life Experiences
00:02:07: Motivation to start Tablet Hotels
00:04:15: Importance of Convincing People in Business
00:05:50: Innovation in Market Strategy
00:06:39: The right time to start a venture
00:07:15: Challenge of Funding
00:09:55: Growth and Business Model of Tablet Hotels
00:12:00: Methodology of Growing Businesses
00:14:08: Approach to Entrepreneurship and innovation
00:15:09: Views on Venture Capital affecting businesses
00:18:03: Life after selling off a business venture
00:22:50: Merging Art, Wine and Commerce into one business
00:23:12: The Reality of the Wine Industry
00:24:12: The Artistry in Producing Wine
00:27:06: Consumer Behavior in Wine Purchasing
00:28:15: Wine Scouting and Tasting
00:29:59: Understanding Wine Distribution in the U.S.
00:34:04: Philosophy on Wealth and Money
00:36:26: Desire for Real Engagement
00:38:07: Angel Investing Experiences
00:42:30: Personal Growth and Patience
00:43:31: Using Psychedelics for Personal Understanding
45:29: The Measure of Success
47:02: Discussing Levels of Fulfillment
53:50: Resonating with the Universe
55:59: Understanding our Place and Role in Life
57:39: Strategic Planning for a New Business
01:07:26: Reflecting on Personal Growth and Selfishness
01:08:05: Conclusion and Gratitude
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Laurent Vernhes: [00:00:00 - 00:00:06]
The challenge was to never compromise the standards, because that's what made people literally obsessed with us.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:06 - 00:00:42]
Laurent Vernhes. He spent 20 years shaping tablet hotels into a tech and luxury travel icon, culminating in its acquisition by the discerning Michelin group four years ago. Now Laran is channeling his expertise and refined taste into launching a wine company committed to delivering the world at fair prices. In this episode, we explore the art of building luxury brands, quality, obsession, and treating business as an artistic endeavor. A deep and independent thinker, Laran shares his life lessons with us in a beautifully vulnerable way.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:00:42 - 00:01:12]
It's not like I have, like, five cycles left in my life. So how do I maximize the time I have left? Winemaking is an art form. I do blind tastings, and guess who wins? Not the fancy bottle. Real artists are not people looking at what the market is looking for and giving the market what they want. It's people just looking inside deeper and deeper and kind of coming up with something that's in their essence. When you get to that level, you realize we're all connected. So that's how people, that's how it touches other people.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:18 - 00:01:21]
Hi, Laurent. So good to see you.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:01:21 - 00:01:23]
So good to see you. How are you?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:01:23 - 00:02:02]
Very well. I'm very well. Laurent, we've been friends for a dozen years, believe it or not, and I've always admired how you can think out of the box and how deeply you process your life experiences. So I'm thrilled to have you here today because I want you to talk about a very important, life changing experience you had after you sold your fantastic business called tablet hotel. So if you don't mind, I'd like to kick off with asking you to tell me more about that journey, the 18 years of building tablet hotels and then selling it. Six years in Michigan group.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:02:02 - 00:02:07]
Well, you want me to summarize the last 24 years of my life.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:02:07 - 00:02:13]
Exactly. All right, how about what motivated you to start tablet hotels?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:02:13 - 00:04:15]
That's a good way. That's a good place to start. I think what motivated me was two things. One is, when I was in the corporate world, I felt I had to fight with a whole bunch of people for my ideas and intuition to be tested in the real world. And I had to convince all these people. And that was very frustrating to me because some of the people were brilliant, and not many, but some. And the others were like people. Why do I have to convince these people? So that was very frustrating to me also that process of having to creating consensus with other people, which is one way to look at it in the corporate world, I felt, because didn't motivate me. So I felt, you know, I was not going to do super well in the corporate world because I was not motivated by that, that approach, and therefore I would probably not reach my potential in that environment. So I thought, you know, I had only, I was doing quite well, but I had got to the point where I know I was going to be like, running some businesses and like, I was running one already, but bigger businesses, and I was going to get more and more people to convince. And that's that whole concept kind of. I thought, you know, why don't I test whether my, if I'm free from having to do this, which is an illusion, but it was an illusion, but what, what would happen if I was free? So that's, that was the main, the, the main driver, you know, that freedom, that freedom to test your own ideas, test yourself with the outside world, because not within your team, which was totally an illusion, because in the end, you still have to do that anyway. As a leader, it's very important, even.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:15 - 00:04:26]
More so, but you try to convince some people of something you deeply believe in, something that comes from your heart and soul. So it's a different kind of convincing. I'm absolutely with you on that one.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:04:26 - 00:05:50]
So then I launched into that and I pictured anything I could think of. I just wanted to be an entrepreneur. I had no particular inspiration as to what it had to be. And then I realized what I know the most about is travel, because my obsession until then had been to travel and see the world. So I thought, how can I apply this?And then, then I started this business, which is still hotel curation business. And what was a bit like what Michelin had been doing for a century on restaurants, except on hotels and globally. And the business model, what was innovative? There were two things that were innovative about this. One was the, the business model was commerce. It was building an online travel agency within the curation. And if you put yourself back 23 years ago, if you had an editorial mission, you are selling advertising. If you were doing commerce, it was discount, discount, discount. So connecting commerce and editorial mission was actually quite innovative. I don't think there are many companies doing that.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:05:50 - 00:06:38]
In fact, I can think of one doing that at the same time. So that was the innovation. Now, everybody understands that the best way to sell is the storytelling. So the editorial is everywhere now, mostly fake editorial, but people understand that's the way. And at the time, it wasn't so obvious. And the other aspect was that if you're selling something that's not exactly inexpensive. You need to connect emotionally with your clients. People buy, you know, people, you know, so that emotion, you know, was the, was the connect. Communicating that emotion was, was very important, and that's something we, we worked very hard on. So that.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:06:39 - 00:07:14]
So, you know, I go, I have pretty unusual journey for tech companies because the bubble, Internet bubble burst like something like two months after I started the company, you know, so you don't choose when you do things. But, you know, this time was my time. I couldn't find the perfect time. There is no perfect time. But what it meant was that there was no, after the initial angel money, there was no institutional investor for, like, about three years that would touch anything that had the word Internet and consumer in its description.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:07:15 - 00:08:38]
So I had to make it work without any outside money. And then, of course, I asked the angel investors. Some of them were relatively very high profile people. One of them is super high profile. Legendary. In fact, I quote him, because he deserves that credit. Chris Blackwell, who, you know, discovered Bob Marley and launched island records and so on, and became a friend much later, like ten years later. But then he was just an investor. And then I contacted him and said, I'm not very good at asking for money, but I have no choice. I need money. Otherwise I'm closing this thing. And I had already fired everyone in a kind of collective suicide way. I told people this anyway, so. Chris Brackwell, I told Chris, I need money. I have to ask. Everybody else has told me, oh, they lost so much money in the bubble. And, and he's like, I'm not going to tell you that. You know, he's like, he's like, this is when we're going to find out whether you are a true entrepreneur or not. And that's it. That's what he said. And that was, you know what?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:38 - 00:08:40]
You've proved yourself now.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:08:40 - 00:09:40]
Then I did. And, you know, and I credit him for, for, you know, bringing my mind back to, you know, this is, this is the. There is no escaping your, your path, your journey. You're just like, no, this is what you wanted to do. Then we're gonna. We're gonna find out whether this is what you are meant to do on that or what, or you have what it takes. So it's. Anyway, so I did find a way to make it work and generate money. Cash. Cash is obviously like air if you don't have any dead. And in a way, that business model became, I discovered also search engine marketing at the same time as Google actually, I was using overture, sold to Yahoo killed overture, because Yahoo killed everything they bought, basically. But Google saw that model and launched Adwords, and the rest is history. But that's at the time, for a while, I was the biggest client of Adwords.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:40 - 00:09:41]
Oh, wow.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:09:42 - 00:09:55]
They had six account managers. Can you believe that? And then at function, I miraculously won a mountain bike. I never win anything at raffles, but of course, I was a good client.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:55 - 00:11:43]
So, Laurent, when I first met you, I've never told you that before, but when I first met you, you were twelve years into the business, and I was baffled by the way you ran the business, because I was coming from a very different side of the tech world, where everyone is obsessed with growth. And suddenly I meet this man who's building a business for years, who basically would not allow a hotel to join his network unless he actually went there and physically experienced it. And I remember talking to you about it, and I said, how do you plan to scale this business if you have to, if you have this restriction, which is self imposed? You were completely unfazed, completely unimpressed by my concerns. I remember it very well and whatever. And it was actually much later, like years later, that I've heard your countryman, Bernard Arnaud, speak about desirability. This is when I understood you better, because what he was saying, of course, today he is the richest man on the planet. He founded and he runs the largest luxury brand in the world, LVMH. And he has proven that his business thinking really works, and it's very resilient through all the crises we had in those several decades that he's been around. So what I found fascinating about his logic is he said, I don't care about growth. I don't even care about profits. I care about one thing and one thing only, and that's desirability. And I remember thinking, oh, I think I understand why Iran is doing what he's doing. It must be about desirability.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:11:43 - 00:11:58]
Yeah, no, that's one way. That's one way to frame it. And I agree. I think it's the most powerful sales tool, you know, that there is nothing stronger that I can think of. And it comes from really focusing on the product.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:12:00 - 00:12:43]
I mean, he has a way to really attract or acquire the best talent out there. And what is done with Tiffany in New York? The store is unbelievable. Invested a massive amount of money. Clearly not, not thinking purely in terms of numbers, but kind of betting that getting to that level of desirability and beauty will attract, will generate success in the case of hotels. To me, the challenge was to never compromise the standards because that's what made people literally obsessed with us. Our clients all loved us.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:44 - 00:12:47]
I am a very loyal client, I love it.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:12:47 - 00:12:47]
Thank you.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:48 - 00:12:50]
I still do.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:12:50 - 00:13:51]
So, yeah, you couldn't compromise. You cannot compromise that desirability. And then, but the growth comes from, comes from the, you know, getting a bigger market share of these places because, because, because it's possible because you're creating a connection, some kind of horizontal connection between these places that didn't exist. So you become the, the club of people who we like these places where there was no kind of no connection even no marketing connection. There are some marketing companies that specialize. No, like leading hotels of the world that's, you know, that specialize in trying to create these connections because their model is driven exactly by getting more hotels. The standards are not there. There are some shitty leading hotels, some great shitty hotels, leading hotels. So you can't really trust them. So they don't get to that, to that, to that objective that they are setting for themselves, which is to create this connection because there is no substance to it in that case.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:13:51 - 00:14:07]
So for me, this obsessive belief in this particular culture where you're building trust, this is so you. For me, this is so much Lauren incorporated.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:14:07 - 00:14:08]
Well, I understand it too.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:08 - 00:14:23]
So I would be very, very curious to hear how you continued after you sold tablet hotels. Did you keep that essence for your next business, which is of course the wine business that I really want you to tell me more about.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:14:23 - 00:15:05]
I'll tell you about it in a second, but I'll just say one more thing about what you are talking about in terms of growth. Of course I wanted to grow because, you know, there are more people out there who are, if they knew about you, would love you. So why not increase the love, you know, connect more people as long as there is some, this kind of substance behind the connection. So. Yeah, but I think, unlike you, I think you had, you had a VC, right? Or more than one. And most, most entrepreneurs have VC's, VC's. You didn't. Okay, so. So in your case, different scenario.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:15:06 - 00:15:09]
That's why I think. You think that way. Yeah, we walked away. Yeah.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:15:09 - 00:17:23]
So in the case of VC driven companies are pushed by the VC's to grow at any cost because most of these companies fail and they need that shining success to make up for all the failed businesses that they've invested in. I'm pretty sure a meaningful portion of these businesses would not have failed without that kind of pressure. But anyway, so they're pushing every business to grow at any cost and often kind of removing what could define the business, which is some real substance, something that clients would connect with just for the sake of growth. So I think, you know, I think you. I'm not trying to say that I'm some kind of I'm trying to say I'm not some kind of monk who didn't care about growth at all. But at the same time, you know, there were faces when I was obsessed with the numbers, like any other kind of business manager. These faces were not the faces of I just growth. And there were faces when I was like completely in some kind of zone with the creative process. We're launching all these new features and completely in love with the futures, obsessing about the futures. These faces were the faces of highest growth, you know, and that, so they, so, you know, you may think the causality is that, you know, maybe I had success before so I could afford to be just creative. And, you know, the success came from the number crunching before, you know, you could try to interpret it one way or the other. But I am completely convinced that the correlation was, you know, when I, when I was, when I could channel creativity, substance, digging in myself, in the people around me, the team, and came up with exciting stuff. That's what created the most growth. Of course, you have to be disciplined about the money, but that's actually in my DNA. So that's a gift I got from my parents, is the financial discipline.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:17:23 - 00:17:25]
We'll get to your parents later.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:17:25 - 00:17:26]
Yeah. Okay.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:17:26 - 00:17:37]
That essence, if your philosophy of how you do business survived the exit and you took it to your next venture, or you reported.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:17:37 - 00:18:02]
So, you know, the oath to the next venture where we are both part of, we both have entrepreneur friends and often, you know, people jump into another one. I didn't do that. You know, I tried. You know, I thought, this is an amazing opportunity to stop and think about what I want. You know, it's not like I have like five cycles left in my life.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:18:03 - 00:20:25]
So how do I maximize the time I have left and how do I, in which way do I want to maximize it? What's meaningful to me? So I stopped. So maybe, you know, doing another venture was one of the possibilities of being on board education, you know, investing whatever, you know, or just being kind of domestic, you know, explorer of what's fun to do. So, you know, all these possibilities and more are there. I know. So I wanted to, why jump? Why not dip into these things a little bit and not go full on into something, but test and see, you know, if anything seems to resonate. So it took about a couple of years before I actually decided that, well, after all, you know, that I want to go back to being an entrepreneur. And because, in fact, this is the way I am an entrepreneur, my version of it, and I'm not the only one, was like this, but resonated with the process of looking in itself, you know, that I do believe, you know, I think it's the difference between, you know, art and commerce, and not that they are incompatible, but, you know, real artists is not people looking at what the market market is looking for and giving the market what they, what they want. It's people just looking inside and deeper and deeper and kind of coming up with something that's in their essence. And basically, and basically, when you get to that level, you realize we're all connected. So that's how people, that's how it touches other people, because you realize the connection as human beings, and that's what artists can do. That's why we need artists, because they help us understand that we're all connected, basically. That's why the human condition is something we share, you know, the good stuff, the bad stuff, even though kind of the really kind of dark secrets and stuff, you know, we all have that in common, except it's very difficult to actualize that connection, you know.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:20:25 - 00:20:51]
For me, it's more a spiritual meta than art matter. It's very interesting for me to see how you came to the same conclusion, but through art, because I found that this human connection is actually how we grow spiritually. That's where we go. We kind of become less self focused, less selfish, and appreciate more that we are part of the whole.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:20:51 - 00:21:59]
But the path to it is by being looking deep inside yourself. That's when you find that connection. And I think that's what true artists do. But the majority of people who call themselves artists are just business people with a skill that they see, okay, this is what the market wants, and they give the market what they want. I don't call that art. So, you know, in a way, I think art is a kind of a purely spiritual endeavor. That's where you and I, that's. I think the so called artists would just know, okay, people seem to like this and then give them more of this. They're more. They are just doing commerce. But does it mean that commerce is bad? No. So I don't think so. I think commerce is actually one way for. For artists to broadcast that connection. To give more people a chance to feel that connection. So I think, you know, so commerce or business, you know, is it can be. Can be used to further that connection between people. And that's the way I want to do business.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:21:59 - 00:22:14]
That's how you see yourself? Is it how you see sort of your identity as well as a person who can merge being an artist and being an entrepreneur in one?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:22:14 - 00:22:50]
My version of art is that through a process of individuation, to use the Carlyong concept, I find myself being a catalyst to make sure artists have as much influence on the rest of us as they can. I mean, to help artists broadcast what they are discovering inside themselves to a wider audience, so that that wider audience feels that connection with the rest of humanity.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:50 - 00:22:57]
So going back to your wine business, how does art and wine and commerce merge into one?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:22:57 - 00:23:12]
So I think winemaking is an art form. So that starts with that. So, I mean, I think of the best winemakers as artists. They're not. You know, a majority of the wine industry is just like any other industry.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:23:12 - 00:24:12]
You know, basically, you know, the. It's a. It's difficult to make money in wine and to scale wine because of the process of just making wine. But what they do, you know, let's take America as an example. What they do is, in America, people love a majority, a large. The single biggest segment is people who love big cabernet Sauvignons and oaky Chardonnays. So these are produced, majority of the wine in America. Is that just because this is the mainstream taste and that's what companies do. In fact, the product is so industrial. They are something like over 30 possible additives that these companies use to add to the liquid you're drinking to make sure it's kind of close enough to what they think is your taste. That's the reality of the wine industry. You're drinking a chemically driven product. Most of the wines are like that. Are they the best wines?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:24:12 - 00:25:36]
Of course not. You know, in fact, the best wines are. Why do I say of course not? Because none of these wines will give you the kind of high that a good wine will give you. So the best wines are usually made by artisans. What do they do? It's like, basically, they have a connection with the nature that's producing these grapes. They treat their literally. I mean, I've seen that over and over again. They treat their vines with, like. With love, basically. That's the only way I can describe it. And so they are artisans. They cannot do that on a large scale. And then they ferment the juice and they put their heart and soul into this, like, literally. And you know what? They do it for themselves. They don't do it for other people. And to me, that's kind of, you know, that's a sign that you're on the path to art. They are doing it purely for themselves. And of course, they're not all super talented. You know, they don't. They don't always succeed. But the ones who succeed, they create stuff that when you drink, when you drink that stuff, you know. You know what I'm talking about. You know, it's good wine. There is something about it, right, that.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:36 - 00:25:38]
I guess it's the same with art.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:25:38 - 00:25:40]
Yes, they are artists.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:40 - 00:25:45]
That is just fantastic. And most of us would react to it and know that it's the same.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:25:45 - 00:25:58]
It's exactly the same. I mean, the alcohol portion of it, whether you get drunk. In fact, I wish there was no alcohol in wine because I could drink more of it.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:26:00 - 00:26:02]
Why not work on that then?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:26:02 - 00:27:06]
No, I looked into that. I looked into that for that reason. Because the process is to remove the alcohol from the wine, which is the way it's done at the moment. It's like a killing the soul of the thing. At the moment, it's not working. So I think these people are artists. So what we do is that we are basically scouting people like that endlessly. There are literally, there is over a million wine labels in the world, which is why everybody is lost. You know, it's like, how do you know? You know, how do you know whether a wine is going to be good or bad on the label? A friend of mine has developed this kind of, you know, intuition for labels. Yeah. Not. Not so. Not so reliable.So how do you know? Nobody knows. And people are, you know, people. Not everyone is willing to try and fail repeatedly. In fact, most people are not willing to have this approach.
LaurentVernhes: [00:27:06 - 00:28:14]
And why do it on wine? So, you know, either. So people either find some wine they like and just keep drinking the same wine over and over again, or people with some disposable cash will just buy the most expensive wine because that's kind of an insurance policy and also it enables them to show off, oh, look at this really fancy bottle of wine. But, you know, and that gives them kind of a threshold of quality, which is not the best wines. It's really the best wines. I've had a lot of them thrown at me to make a point, and I do blind tastings, and guess who wins? Not the fancy bottle. We can do it anytime. And it's like a fun game to play with people who show off their wine cellars. So I want to help people discover, fall in love with good art, with good wine, in a way, and remove a big chunk of the risk of failing when you try something new.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:28:15 - 00:29:10]
So we're scouting all these wines and then we have this process of blind tasting at the end. So the scouting takes forever. It's like, ongoing all the time. And, and then we have, we meet every, every two months now in, in my place in Italy, and we have, like, something like wines from 50 producers and we. And we invite other producers. Now, these days we are on the fourth collection. So I invite the winemakers who were selected before and a few other people. And then together, we blind taste everything and we come up with. With six wines and we create a collection. And then we. This collection is sent to the members as a way for them to discover pearls of happiness.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:11 - 00:29:24]
So, Laurent, you actually answered my question, which was whether you kept that obsession with customer trust and desirability and quality from tablet hotel.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:29:24 - 00:29:24]
Yes.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:24 - 00:29:33]
MBA wine. And I guess the answer is yes because you're still curating and you're tasting every single wine that you're giving to your customers.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:29:33 - 00:29:38]
Yeah. And I could have just said yes. I could have just said yes to your question.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:29:40 - 00:29:49]
But, Laurent, before we get. Before you started MV wine, you said Roan wine, right? Maison Bernie.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:29:49 - 00:29:59]
No, it was, it was. I was not growing wine. You know, I. I have too much respect for the people who do it well to, to, you know, pretend, you know, I can.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:29:59 - 00:31:15]
I can do the same thing. It's like, no, I was not growing it. I actually white labeled. I was, I was, I was. It was one of these faces at tablet where I was crunching numbers all day long. And, you know, I needed some. Some creative, some fun in my, in my professional life. So, you know, I've had an obsession with champagne for a long, long time. And by chance, I found a champagne at a friend of mine's place that was like, incredible. You know, it's like I couldn't stop. I can drink champagne a bit like water, but this one was like, this is like, where is the source of this stuff? And then, you know, it told me, and there's somebody who. A lot of the small producers in champagne never sell in retail. They just sell directly to families. Some of the best champagne never reaches retail. Basically. That was one of those. And I said, do you mind if I call these people? So I called these people and then I said, oh, you know, I'd like to do an experiment, so I understand this whole wine thing better. Can I buy some of your champagne, put my own label and see. And I want to understand how I can market wine in America, in the world. I understand how this works.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:31:15 - 00:31:16]
But it was more of an experiment.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:31:16 - 00:32:54]
Yeah, that was an experiment. And it helped me understand the ridiculous complexity of wine distribution in the US. This is just like Soviet Union, 10.5, you know, it's crazy, the regulations around alcohol in the US. And so it helped me understand that. So which, which allowed me to start this business, took. There is a reason why the business, the way I'm doing the business, doesn't exist, is because it's, it requires a lot of creativity from, from, you know, how to go around regulations and, and the structure is strangely complex just because of regulations, just to be able to do what I want to do, which is fairly simple, but nobody is able to do it because of the regulations. So that champagne was the beginning of understanding that and also a way to test whether my personal taste resonated, whether there was some kind of truth and whether in wine and champagne, and whether I was personally close enough to the truth of what, something that's good versus not. And it turns out not too far, because it was an instant success through blind tasting. And to this day, people are, people are calling me saying, do you have any more of this champagne?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:32:56 - 00:32:57]
You stopped doing it.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:32:57 - 00:34:04]
I did. And then now I'm bringing back a new one, which I will also use as a white label approach. The wine business is not white label, it's collaborations with the winemaker. So we pick a cuvee, and then we basically take over a whole cuve, and then we co brand. And the idea is to also express our admiration for these winemakers. We're not trying to hide who they are. Quite the contrary. We are telling these people are like, amazing. But for the champagne, I found another one which I like even more. It's taken two years, but that's what I use only to reward people in the context of the wine business. So if you, if you're a member who's inviting, who's helped us find some winemakers, we did not know, here's some champagne. You know, it's like, you know, it's like, it's like a gift, this gift that people don't expect that's special, and they think, oh, you know, it's some cheap thing, and then they're drinking. It's like, oh, no, it's not some cheap thing. It's really good stuff. It's like.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:34:04 - 00:34:11]
And that, you know, then that's when you have that loyalty because you've done something that came from the heart.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:11 - 00:34:24]
So you mentioned that your parents taught you financial discipline. How did you thinking about money change from before the exit? After your exit?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:34:24 - 00:34:54]
No, I did a couple of things that I had told myself when I was a kid, if I ever had money, I do this. No, I did one or two of these things. But basically, I think what surprised me is that I guess, you know, sometimes you talk to people, it's like, what would you do if you had money? What would you do with that money? And then you have all these ideas of things you could buy and do. And to my surprise, once you have the money.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:34:54 - 00:34:56]
You don't want any of that.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:34:56 - 00:35:16]
That desire is gone kind of almost instantly, because you can. In fact, the point was that you could. And for most of these things, there's not the ownership or the. No, I mean, so, yeah, that was an interesting.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:17 - 00:35:23]
I mean, that's what happened to you. You lost desire in all these material things once you could afford them.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:35:23 - 00:35:37]
In most of them. I mean, I live well, you know, I mean, I live very well. But, you know, all these cliche things that a lot of people do with money. Tell me why.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:37 - 00:35:42]
So what is money for you today? What's the meaning of wealth for you?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:35:42 - 00:35:53]
Well, you know, when I talked about money before, you know, I talked about it, the ability to not think about money.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:55 - 00:35:56]
So it's freedom.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:35:56 - 00:35:58]
Freedom, yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:35:58 - 00:35:59]
From having to earn money.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:36:00 - 00:36:26]
Yeah. So, you know that. So when I stopped, when I sold that business, when I was finally out after the integration phase, which lasted a couple of years, I mean, you know, I. So I had told myself, you know, I'm going to stop and just find time to think. The issue was, was that, you know, I couldn't.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:36:26 - 00:36:55]
I was feeling guilty every day. It took a long time to stop feeling guilty about not solving some problem. Every day I felt like, what have I done? You know, I'm wasting my days. Like, because you're so used to kind of fixing something and dealing with some situation, and it's like, that was the main issue. The money was like.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:36:58 - 00:37:14]
So you felt restless and guilty that you were not actually doing something. Was it the business itself or you felt that you were not contributing to the world what you had, your art, your talents, your skills?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:37:14 - 00:37:57]
No, all of the above, you know. I mean, I'm like, what's the. What's what? I'm just wasting. I mean, I've got this. I find myself in this life, you know, I should, you know, from just going back to my french roots, like the existential, you know, the french existentialism. It's like, whether you believe in God or not, there is only one answer. It is to engage. So. So I was not engaging. I felt I was not engaging. I was wasting this situation I find myself in by not engaging enough.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:57 - 00:38:07]
So besides that white label project for wine, what else did you try to do before you found your new art business in MBA wine?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:38:07 - 00:38:09]
I became an Android investor.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:38:10 - 00:38:11]
How did that go?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:38:11 - 00:38:16]
Well, these companies are still alive, so we will see whether there is any return.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:38:18 - 00:38:19]
Good.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:38:19 - 00:39:15]
It's like a long term, long term project. That was interesting, you know, that, you know, I mean, the way. The way some people do it professionally, and I respect that it was. I was doing it in the context, actually, of the HBS group of angel investors, which was great to have different angles on what matters to you, your criteria for investing. And clearly, we all had different criteria, and that kind of freed me to think of only the criteria I felt was I had something to contribute more intuitively because the other guys were so analytical that I didn't need to use my analytical skills.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:15 - 00:39:18]
Did it satisfy your desire to engage with life again?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:39:18 - 00:42:04]
No. No, because I want to be the person who's doing something. In fact, it's kind of brought back this kind of idea that, you know, seeing the difference. I connected with these people. If I didn't connect with the CEO's, I wouldn't invest. It's kind of a pre necessary condition for me to invest. But obviously, we're different people. But it kind of reminded me of why I had become an entrepreneur. And, you know, and it also reminded me that I learned many skills that I didn't really want to learn, like managing people. You know, once you scale and, you know, you have to create, you have to formalize the culture and all these things, you know, I used to say, oh, you know, I didn't start a business to manage a bunch of people, a ton of people. You know, that's. That was not my. My motivation, and I find myself in that situation, and I. And I know, almost reluctantly, but. I know, but it forced me to do it better, to get better, to get. To become quite decent at it. And I'm very grateful. I learned. I learned, I understood. I mean, there is a lot of depth about this, you know, about doing this, which I didn't expect to find, and I was not looking. So it's reminded me that these skills, why would I waste all these things I've learned? I should find a way to apply them and not an angel investor. I can share my experience. It's like, gosh, that I don't tell them, you should do this, do that, but share relevant experiences in my life that they may relate to or tell them what my decision was and know what the outcome was. That's always good. But sharing that was my, has been my way of contributing to their own adventure. But it's reminding me that's also a great way to grow. It's not just a financial pursuit or some kind of show off. I grow faster than you. I make more money. No, I think entrepreneurship is a way to grow spiritually as well. And I didn't. I had kind of, I don't realize that I had also grown in that way as an entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur, because I was, because the level of pain was quite high. But, you know, you learn a lot through pain.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:05 - 00:42:23]
So anyway, your angel investing helped you appreciate what you've actually learned and what you have and all the skills you have. And that made you feel even more eager to engage with life, as you, as you put it, and start another business.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:42:23 - 00:42:29]
Yes. It made me realize that's a good way to engage with life and grow.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:30 - 00:42:37]
Yeah. Yeah. Because building a business definitely makes you grow much faster than you ever want to.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:42:37 - 00:42:38]
Yes.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:40 - 00:42:43]
Addicted to the speed. Right. It's very hard to slow down.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:42:43 - 00:43:30]
Yeah. I mean, patience. No, in fact, you know, patience is, I mean, you know, I've been chronically impatient. You know, in fact, I had a quick side story. I was having dinner with Chris Blackwell, whom I mentioned before, and one day, and I was telling him, you know, I thought I would, with age, I would become more patient. And he's like laughing his head off. He's like, it's the biggest contradiction could ever think. Of course, the older you are, the less time you have, so why would you be more patient? But I'm kind of sticking with it because I think you need to accept what I've learned in those two years. Maybe that was one of your questions.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:43:31 - 00:45:29]
I've learned through, in fact, working on myself. One of the ways I've done that was, you know, having some guided psychedelic trips and very profound experiences for which I'm very grateful. And I know it's not something you do, like every month, you know, it's intense. So you do that once in a while. And I'm not sure I think I'm getting closer to doing and doing another one. But, you know, you learn to, to trust your intuition and not think of it as some kind of lazy, lazy thing to do. Like, oh, I'm following my heart, which to some extent, you know, feels. Sounds a bit weak, but. But no, you know, yeah, that's real. And then you need to kind of really not just, you need to find it and learn to follow it in a kind of measured way and patient way. So, you know, patient. There is something to patience, which I'm learning through this business. Whenever I'm, like, going repeating some of the negative patterns, I'm like, okay, so I know what this is. This is an emotion. You know, I can distance myself from the emotion. Not that I want to distance myself from my emotions all the time. We are human beings, and part of the beauty of being a human being is living these emotions. But you have a better understanding of your relationship with your emotions. So that's helped me grow, I think we'll see. Because at the end of the day, whether the business is a good way for me to engage in life would be demonstrated by how much it resonates with people or not.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:45:29 - 00:45:57]
Am I creating something where there is a lot of desirability? I can say that word properly. Strangely, it's a french guy who came up with that concept for you. Here I am. I can't pronounce it, but, yes, if I create something that has a high level of that, that will be. That will mean that I have engaged in a positive way.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:45:57 - 00:46:08]
So for you, it's a combination of your artistic, creative expression and being sure that other people need what you are creating through that expression.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:46:08 - 00:46:50]
Yes, I think, you know, I think we're all a conduit. You know, I think what we are is stuff comes in and then comes out of us, whether it's, you know, physical, conceptual ideas, energy, everything. So we're a conduit. So am I. Am I a conduit, a good conduit? You know, am I kind of bringing something? I mean, what I hope is coming out of me as a conduit is more connections between people. And. And so, yeah, that's how it's going to be measured.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:46:50 - 00:47:01]
So, talking about fulfillment on a rate from zero to ten, how would you rate how fulfilled your life is right now?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:47:02 - 00:49:02]
It varies with every second of the day. You know, sometimes you feel. Sometimes, but I'm not telling myself stories, so I think I am in touch with where I am. Fulfillment. What form does it take? Is it an emotion? I don't know. I mean, I don't want to be the Buddha. I think meditation is an amazing tool to feel this connection, to realize that all these thoughts, these emotions are just like one part of. One part of you and mostly the part that helps you survive. But do I want to be the Buddha? No, because I like being a human being, you know, with all its flaws, you know? So I know. I don't know what fulfillment, what form fulfillment takes. I mean, you know, what matters. We're talking about family before, before you started the countdown, giving my kids, you know, all the love I can give them, you know, is definitely high on the, on the measure of, which doesn't mean spoiling them. No, it's. I'm not talking about, you know, showing my love through by making their life so easy. That's not the point. But, but that's important. And I think my kids are, you know, I like the way they're, they're developing as human beings, and that gives me a lot of joy.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:03 - 00:49:07]
Fantastic. So you get your fulfillment from that?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:49:07 - 00:49:32]
Not just that, you know, I mean, like, just from all the sources that we find fulfillment as human beings, you know? But I think, you know, it's like every day is different. You want to have a little adventure? I want adventure, that's for sure. I don't want to. My God, if I, if I felt fulfilled, what would it look like I would be? I would be ready to die.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:32 - 00:49:45]
Oh, well, unless you define fulfillment as this kind of life that you want, including adventure. Right. My question was basically to try to understand what it is for you.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:49:45 - 00:49:57]
Yeah. But, you know, I mean, I guess, I know I'm. When you say fulfillment, I guess I heard happiness or something like that. So, yeah, happiness. What is happiness?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:57 - 00:50:18]
Yeah, fulfillment is more of a, you know, satisfaction. Like, I was listening to you, and I thought, okay, you seem to be quite satisfied, or at least in the process, that is satisfying in terms of expressing your creativity and growing. Right. You're back on track. Growing really fast.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:50:18 - 00:51:22]
I think I was growing, you know, I think faster, you know, I mean, you said before, you know, entrepreneur, you, you grow fast as an entrepreneur. You know, is it, you know, it's like, you know, you're, I think there is a pattern in your, in what you're saying. Like, you know, you, when you are an entrepreneur, it was all about growth and speed, I think speed to death. I mean, speed to what? You know, I mean, if you don't have a, I think to me it's an, you know, it's not slightly. The difference between having an intent and having a goal. You know, I think my approach is having an intent, so I can check my intent every day. I think a goal, you only know whether you've reached it. When you get to that timeline that you set for yourself in between, you never don't know. And then what I think, to me, what's more important is to have an intent. So, yes, I am, from that point of view, I am checking on what is my intent in life all day long, every day, you know, so. So that's maybe what you meant by fulfillment.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:22 - 00:51:33]
Because I totally agree with you, because the intent defines the direction you're going to. It's a direction, and the goal is more tactical, it's specific.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:51:34 - 00:51:58]
The goal is, you know, it can be a motivation for that intent. And if it's used that way, yes. But, you know, whose goal has meant in history has meant much for, for the rest of the universe or mankind no one permits. I mean, Buddha, maybe, just like.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:52:00 - 00:52:03]
Yeah, I guess that's. That's a high standard, isn't it?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:52:03 - 00:52:26]
Yeah, it's high standard. Because if I think, to me, you know, when you're talking about, I think people tend to overestimate their place in. In the world, in humanity, in history. And so then I talked about growth, and, you know, I had a, you know, so rich, you know, it's like there is no end. I mean, this is, this is so you know.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:52:26 - 00:52:33]
What are your intents or intent at the moment? What's your direction?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:52:33 - 00:53:00]
So, you know, I've set a couple of projects which I think, where I think I can explore my intent and develop my intent. And, you know, I'm open to whatever I expect. This experience, these two experiences bring me in terms of whatever it is.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:53:00 - 00:53:02]
So you're looking. You're looking for your intent.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:53:03 - 00:53:49]
No, the intent is to develop things that resonate with who you think you are. This way, I think you can grow to be. I do tend to adhere to the Carl Jung format or template for what it is to be a human being. And so this way, I'll be, you know, I'd be on a better path to my individuation. I won't get sidetracked in kind of orthogonal issues, which you kind of lose your, especially relationships.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:53:50 - 00:54:27]
You know, it's easy to kind of get sidetracked, and then you become obsessed, and then you kind of lose the. We lose the path. So, you know, I just want to grow as a human being and find out, make sure I play my part in the universe, that's all. And as tiny and I know as it is, you know, it's like obviously incredibly nanoscopic, but I, but I want to, and my place is to resonate with the rest of creation basically.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:27 - 00:54:35]
You do it through art. That's in a way your tool for connecting to the universe and resonating with it.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:54:35 - 00:54:47]
Because that's what art is about. I don't think of myself as an artist, but I think we are all connected, you and I, Anastasia especially.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:52 - 00:54:56]
That's for sure. And I'm happy about that.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:54:56 - 00:55:51]
But, you know, and then these moments when you feel fulfilled, right. I think it's when you, when you feel that, when you feel that connection with, with what's around you, that's so I want, I want to feel that. I want to feel that deeply and more than just fleeting second. And then I think you do that by engaging in a, you know, in life in a way that, that, well, you're closer to, you know, what you're meant to be and as tiny as it might be. And some people have, you know, ideas of that. They are, so they play a huge part.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:55:52 - 00:55:59]
Well, yeah, we don't, but, but that's all we can control. Right. That part is still, it's still important.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:55:59 - 00:56:01]
Yeah. I mean, you have to.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:56:01 - 00:56:03]
Yeah, we are here for a reason.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:56:03 - 00:56:21]
We're here for a reason. And that reason is to, and it's understanding that reason, it's part of the, you know, it's part of the way you, you are contributing, you fulfill why you're here.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:56:21 - 00:56:34]
Yeah. As you said, as conduits, we receive those gifts from the universe and then we do what we can with them and then we give, hopefully something amazing to the world.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:56:34 - 00:57:04]
I think, yeah, I think that, no, I think creation is what it's all about. So in a way, being an entrepreneur, creating something out of nothing is you're close to, I think the intent is close, of entrepreneurs. I think is close to, I think, what we are here for, which is to create together.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:57:04 - 00:57:26]
I agree. I think an important part of it is to fully understand what those gifts that we have are, whether we work one with them or we develop them, as you said, for example, managing people and then really finding a way to use them as well as we possibly can to create something out.
Laurent Vernhes: [00:57:26 - 00:57:39]
Yeah, I think you need to embrace whatever happens and find a way to make it a positive.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:57:39 - 00:57:58]
So when you think about your new business in the wine, do you think about it as something you will do for the rest of your life or you don't think that way or you actually plan to sell it the way you did. Tablet hotels. What's your strategic plan for the company?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:57:58 - 00:59:41]
You know, one thing I've learned is that you can, you can't think too many steps ahead. It's, it's a total waste of, of time, and it makes you lose your focus. And I think you really need to focus on the, on that next step. Of course, you know, I can't, I can't help myself. And I've talked about how it, where it could go, it could do, and it's amazing and crazy and world domination and all this stuff. But, no, I mean, I'm doing it because it's something that I think I will enjoy doing for as long as I keep it interesting. And it's really up to me to keep it interesting creatively and obviously from a business. Creatively also from a business point of view. So it's up to me to, I mean, I'm creating a vehicle that can make my life really, really enjoyable because it enables me to express all the things I want to, the way I want to engage with life. So it gives me this vehicle for that. So as long as it works as that vehicle, I keep doing it. But it's up to me to really kind of fix and change the vehicle, to keep it doing what, what it's supposed to be doing. I think to me, it's also, I think, you know, I, from a, you know, I think, who is not selfish, but I, it gives me a currency to. So, you know, another way to frame this is it gives me the currency to connect with the kind of people I want to connect with.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:59:41 - 00:59:46]
Tell me about that. Let's dig into that. I like that. Whom do you want to connect to?
Laurent Vernhes: [00:59:46 - 01:00:06]
People who were, you know, more aware, more awake to life than others to help me grow so we can help each other grow.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:06 - 01:00:08]
What do you mean by that? That they are more awake.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:00:08 - 01:00:26]
They're able to put some distance between, between themselves and what's going on in their life in a way that they know. That's kind of meditation, gives you a version of that.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:29 - 01:00:33]
You're talking about detachment and their ability to detach.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:00:33 - 01:00:53]
I mean, basically, you see that all this whole craziness that we let ourselves, that drives us, you know, keeps us busy is not reality. I mean, it's a version of reality, but it's your version of reality, but it's not the underlying reality.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:53 - 01:01:00]
How do you make that distinction between wanting to engage in life fully and being detached?
Laurent Vernhes: [01:01:00 - 01:02:35]
That's the difficulty. It's the balance. I mean, just to say another platitude. You know, life is a balancing act, you know, so, you know, it's not like there is one way or it's, you know, you have to, you know, there is duality in everything. You know, one thing exists or is perceived because. Because the absence of it exists, too. I mean, so, so, so, yes, there is this balance to find between those two things. I agree with you. These are, you know, can be contradictory, but I think they're both necessary and they're both part of, I think that it's, we are where, I think we can easily get stuck in one and not see the other side of it. But the other side of it is not the answer. The answer is to the other side of it is helps us make sense of what we. Where we can easily get trapped and help us navigate it. Because it's, you know, if you believe in things, are there for a reason? Yes. You know, there is no, there is. This challenge of dealing with the day to day craziness of all kinds is part of why we are here, probably.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:02:35 - 01:03:20]
You know, the way I like to think about it is having some kind of filtering system which you can improve over time. And that filtering system helps you distinguish between things you want to engage with and things you want to filter out. So things you want to filter out. If we talk about emotions, this is where you want to try to detach from them and things you really want to engage with. This is where you want to be present and fully present for. Like, for example, you mentioned children. You want to be fully present when you're with them, having quality time. But at the same time, you may want to detach from things you cannot control or negative and, or not. Interesting for you say, politics.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:03:20 - 01:03:20]
No, I agree.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:03:20 - 01:03:37]
Over time, we're getting better and better at what we filter out. We become more discerning, and it's a skill in a way. That's how I resolve that challenge for myself. Is it how you think about it?
Laurent Vernhes: [01:03:37 - 01:04:40]
No, I think the ability to filter entails the fact that you are able to have some detachment in the first place. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to, to filter anything. But, so, so I agree. It's, it's important, but it, but sometimes, you know, but I think what's interesting is the things that, that you are not able to filter out. So there are some patterns, like, you know, you, so that this is the, this is like the bleeding edge, right? Some things that you, you know, it's happening and it's like, but you can filter it. So that's why. Exactly. And I'm not saying, oh, so I know, I see that as a, you know, I think that's what, that's where you, you know, when I, when this happens, it's like, okay, well, this is, this is my next, this could be the, my next little growth project here to just understand where this comes from and what I can, what I can do about it.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:04:40 - 01:04:54]
Yeah, but sometimes something comes to our life that is meant to be there, but we don't understand why. And it stuck there. And maybe, you know, ten years from now, we'll, we'll understand why. So we have to have respect also for those situations.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:04:54 - 01:05:24]
I agree. To me that, so there is, there is some, it's great to feel that you can filter out some, some things, but that's, that's your path is how do you deal with these other things that you're not able to filter out? So it's like on to the next thing. It's not like you find.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:24 - 01:05:52]
But you seem to have built or in the process of building a new vehicle for yourself to channel your creativity where you wanted to go. And by engaging in that, you will be filtering out other things, by definition, because you have to. And that's the beauty of building your own product or business or vehicle. It forces you to be good at that, at what you don't want.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:05:52 - 01:06:47]
You need to, you know? So I'm talking, so it turns out that the winemakers we pick, when I talk to them, I'm like, I feel like, I feel an almost instant connection with these people, and they're very different from me. They spend their time in the fields. I don't have their understanding of our connection with nature. So I learned from them about that, and I listen to them. It almost puts more pressure on me to do my part of this thing, which is to connect them with people who kind of appreciate what they're doing, and therefore, you know, this way connect with them, you know, puts pressure on me to do my stuff at this, at the same level of creativity.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:06:47 - 01:06:56]
You are bringing their art to the world, which is essential for them to feel that they realize in their, you know their talents.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:06:56 - 01:07:16]
To make a living with the life they've chosen, regardless of making a living or not. I mean, they were there. They were like, they just chose that for purely, completely individual, selfish reasons, because that's the way they wanted to live. And then, so if I can help them make a living from that, that's a good thing.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:07:17 - 01:07:21]
Of course, you'll sustain their art for the rest of us.
Laurent Vernhes: [01:07:21 - 01:07:26]
Yeah, because I believe their art is useful to the rest of us.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:07:26 - 01:07:31]
Laurent, do you think that over time, you became less selfish or more selfish?
Laurent Vernhes: [01:07:31 - 01:08:05]
So, I mean, I would try we all selfish. So there's just so more or less, you know, I think, you know, the classic, you know, supermarket psychology, you know, is that, you know, you've got your ego, and then, you know, below that, the essence, I think I've been, have been more aware of those two aspects and more connected to my essence.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:08:05 - 01:08:20]
Laurent, thank you so much. I absolutely loved the conversation. I always do. You always make me think much deeper about life. I hope you had the same effect on my audience as well.
