Dan Berger. $100M Exit, Sex Addiction, and the Fight to Belong
Episode - 56
Dan Berger. $100M Exit, Sex Addiction, and the Fight to Belong
Some exits, they just stop us in our tracks. Not because of the money or the business genius, but because of the radical personal transformation that followed.
Dan Berger's story is one of those. Seven years ago, he sold social tables for around $100 million million dollars. And like so many of us, the exit cracked something open.
The wealth, the time, the freedom. It didn't bring peace at first. It made things worse. Den spiraled into addiction, sex and porn. But he soon realized the pleasure they gave him was too fleeting, too empty. It did nothing to meet his real needs.
That's when Den realized that his Exit wasn't just a big win. It was a chance to create something he'd never truly had. Real sense of belonging.
Today, years later, he finally has it. He has finally built it.
Then is a story of real courage. The courage to confront his darkest demons. Childhood trauma, bipolar disorder, Chronic anxiety. The patience and resilience to get to the root of his pain.
This is one story you really don't want to miss.
What We Discussed:
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:55 Life After Selling Social Tables
00:02:25 Loss of Belonging Post-Exit
00:03:53 Failed Attempts to Recreate Work Identity
00:05:05 Belonging & Addiction
00:06:42 Why He Wasn’t Aware of His Needs
00:09:43 The Crossroads Moment and Reinventing Identity
00:13:23 Dan’s Framework for Belonging
00:18:10 Can Our Belonging Archetype Change?
00:22:43 Dan’s Belonging Tank Today
00:25:02 How Dan Defines Belonging
00:32:01 Sex Addiction and Its Roots in Belonging
00:36:22 Getting Help: 12-Step Recovery
00:37:54 Why No One Talks About Sex Addiction
00:39:44 Loneliness, Belonging & the Male Crisis
00:42:52 Raising Boys and Masculinity Today
00:45:14 Switching Gears: The Financial Impact of Exit
00:48:49 Die With Zero: A New Financial Philosophy
00:53:23 Purpose, Not Just Experience
00:56:00 New Venture: Offsite Retreat Venues
00:57:38 Lessons from Social Tables to New Business
00:59:12 Dan’s Business Archetype: Operator
01:00:12 The Risks of Using Own Money
01:01:19 Writing a Book: Process and Pitfalls
01:03:20 What's Special About Dan's Book
01:04:07 How Dan Wants to Be Remembered
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Anastasia: [00:00:01 - 00:00:10]
Welcome to Exit Paradox, where we explore what actually happens after a successful business exit. I'm your host, Anastasia Koroleva.
Dan: [00:00:14 - 00:00:28]
I think that, you know, in life there are crossroad moments, times where you can kind of hit the reset button and try something new. And I think that yes, post Exit, there is a life change. You can have way less margin and way more opportunity to do stuff.
Anastasia: [00:00:28 - 00:01:52]
Some exits, they just stop us in our tracks. Not because of the money or the business genius, but because of the radical personal transformation that followed. Dan Berger's story is one of those. Seven years ago, he sold social tables for around $100 million. And like so many of us, the exit cracked something open. The wealth, the time, the freedom. It didn't bring peace at first. It made things worse. Dan spiraled into addiction, sex and porn. But he soon realized the pleasure they gave him was too fleeting, too empty. It did nothing to meet his real needs. That's when Dan realized that his exit wasn't just a big win. It was a chance to create something he'd never truly had. Real sense of belonging. Today, years later, he finally has it. He has finally built it. Then is a story of real courage. The courage to confront his darkest demons. Childhood trauma, bipolar disorder, chronic anxiety. The patience and resilience to get to the root of his pain. This is one story you really don't want to miss. Hi Dan, thank you so much for joining me today.
Dan: [00:01:53 - 00:01:54]
It's nice to be here.
Anastasia: [00:01:55 - 00:02:25]
Awesome. So you sold your company Social Tables seven years ago, which means that you had enough time to process that experience. And I know from our previous conversations that you certainly have made some deep realizations. And this is what I want to dive into today. So let's jump right in and talk about the biggest one. If you look back, what is the biggest realization you've made after you exit?
Dan: [00:02:25 - 00:03:26]
I realized that my sense of belonging was coming out of my work and not from my personal life. So I've done a lot of work on belonging and I've learned that there are multiple paths to finding belonging without boring the audience with different paths. Pretty much the workplace can falsely give you the feeling of belonging. Whether it's by fueling your self esteem through, you know, awards or speaking or large company, or whether it's interpersonal relationships. By having, you know, good friends at work, especially with like business partners and things like that, it kind of obfuscates the reality of what's important and how people find their sense of belonging in a, in a fundamental way for human that humans have. So I Would say the number one thing that I realized in the last seven years, probably five years post exit, but I've kind of really been tuning the last two. So the biggest thing was that my sense of belonging had to come from me and not from external factors.
Anastasia: [00:03:27 - 00:03:35]
So basically, when you sold the company, you realized that your sense of belong, belonging came from those relationships that were now gone. Is that correct?
Dan: [00:03:36 - 00:03:41]
Yes. Relationships, symbolic bonds, you know, pretty much everything. Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:03:42 - 00:03:52]
All right, so how did you. How did you go about this and. And how do you now go about creating, like, recreating what. What is gone with the Exit?
Dan: [00:03:53 - 00:04:50]
That's a great question. So I came to that realization, like, I mean, it's nothing, you know, novel or I think it's novel. Nothing novel about, like, know, the fact that I, you know, once I sold, I was like, what do I do now? So I try to go buy another business and run it. Actually, I ran a business. I ran like a music festival for a while, and then I. And then I tried to buy meetup.com, which is like an old Internet brand, and I was trying to buy that, and then co happened, so everything kind of fell apart. And then I was like, well, I got all this time in the world, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is my first, like, go to was just another company, you know, without, like, coming up, like coming up for hair, you know, just like, going back into it. And then. And then I realized that my sense of belonging was actually from my professional environment.
Anastasia: [00:04:50 - 00:05:04]
So. Would you agree that when we sell a business, we realize that we've lost that, you know, source of belonging that we had, which is our basic human need. And that's what you experienced?
Dan: [00:05:05 - 00:05:24]
Yes, but I think that that's not true for everybody. For me, I was not married. I was. I did not have kids. I was in a place that I didn't really like, Washington, D.C. and I was an addict.
Anastasia: [00:05:24 - 00:05:25]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:05:25 - 00:06:28]
And I. And I probably lacked some hobbies. So all these things made me look for belonging in the wrong place, you know, I. E. Work. And when I sold, I had nothing. I had nothing left. So I decided to, you know, pick up my life in. In a pretty profound way. And I moved to a new place. After exploring most of the United States, I started dating intentionally and then eventually met Jen and had her daughter at a daughter. A few months ago, I leaned into my Judaism and started practicing my religion more and so on and so forth, so. And I found a bunch of interests, so. And I really doubled down on, like, relationships that mattered and I started going to, you know, a 12 step program. So for all those reasons I just didn't have that kind of self awareness outside my like I did have a lot of self awareness but self awareness of my needs and I never explored that fully.
Anastasia: [00:06:29 - 00:06:42]
So why do you think that happened? Why you were not aware of your needs while you were building the business? Like would it be like if you could go back in time, would it actually be possible for you to treated differently?
Dan: [00:06:42 - 00:08:06]
Your name for belonging question. That's a great question. So look, I'm not going to pull the victim card but there are some forces out of your control when you are an entrepreneur in my shoes. So for example I, I had a board that was exceptionally difficult. I had raised about $30 million with Bessemer Venture Partners leading my A and Bessemer and specifically my partner were extremely tough. So I had these just a lot of pressure to work really hard. I also was not married, did not have a family. I was young so I didn't really have a sense of belonging then and then I didn't really practice any kind of religion or spirituality that grounded me. So yes, if I was doing it all over again, you know, if you're like the single, you know, dude in their 30s, you're, you know, you don't really have those things if you're working 247 but if you have a different lifestyle and you have, you've made different choices, you've started a company at a different time, you were self funded or you know, you know, or you're, or your investors weren't assholes then. Yeah, I think there is, it is possible to have a sense of belonging and thus much more happiness.
Anastasia: [00:08:07 - 00:09:42]
Well, the reason I'm asking is because oftentimes we think oh I wish I knew before. But if we are honest with ourselves, maybe before we were not ready for this knowledge, maybe we were not, we didn't have that need as much. Maybe we were too busy, I'm not sure. For example, when people before an exit try to understand what happens post exit, it will in reality help because they're in a different place. Like for example, for me I only fully appreciated the importance of belonging post exit when I lost it. And it was very difficult at the time because for me it wasn't just that I lost the employees, but also my friends changed the way they treated me and I also had this perception that they looked at me differently. So there were all sorts of social challenges that were very difficult. But looking back I actually think it's A good thing, because I, A, I started appreciating the importance of belonging, and B, so I cleared my plate in a way, or I didn't intentionally do it, but I could start all over with much more intentionality. And I know in your book, you. You talk about the importance of being intentional, about creating that social network. And I think an exit is actually as hard as it is. It's a chance to build it in accord, you know, according to new rules that you believe in, because now we have the time and the opportunity and the appreciation of. Of the importance.
Dan: [00:09:43 - 00:12:22]
You raise several valid points, and I want to speak on all them. So, you know, I did not experience people looking at me differently. I kind of wish they did, in a way. I, like, sold my company. I was like, I'm a millionaire. And I was thinking, oh, cool, now I'll hang out with celebrities or I'll be invited to cool. And that never happened. So my expectations were busted a little bit. I think that, you know, in life there are many, but not, not many. There are crossroad moments, and the number of crossroad moments that we have decrease over time. Crossroads moments are times where you can kind of hit the reset button and try something new. It happens when you go to school. It happens when your kids go to school, happens when you move or start a new job. But as we grow older and we become kind of set in our ways, we have less crossroad moments. So the opportunity to change is. Is. Is not. Is not as prevalent. And for me, my life has kind of been in these stages. You know, the first. And I'll just kind of round up. The first decade of my life was Tel Aviv, Israel. The second decades of my life were New York City. The fourth decade of my life was Washington, D.C. and the fifth decade of my life is now in Boise, Idaho. So I've always been to enable, to kind of reinvent my. And each one of them came with, like, some identity adjustments. And, you know, so when I moved to Boise, Idaho, I became, like, super, like, outdoorsy. When I moved to dc, I became kind of, like, businessy. When I was in New York, I became kind of like counterculture, and I was into politics for a while. So they really depends on the life stage. And I think that yes, post exit, there is a life change and there is the. You can have way more. You have way more, kind of way less margin and way more opportunity to do stuff and kind of make these wholesale changes. And you're absolutely right. You hit the nail on the head. There Are there is an impact in interpersonal relationships? Not so much because people use you or whatever, but just because you realize that, like, some people that you have are not in your life are not necessarily the right people. And I. I'm not a proponent of, like, breaking up with friends. I like to think about it as, like, adding friends and then the other ones will just fizz out. And the last thing I'll say is that there are multiple, what I refer to as fake belonging summits, where you think you have belonging from something and it's actually not true. One of them is a hand me down belonging where, like, your parents, you. You do something your parents encourage you to do. Another one is kind of misconceived belonging where you're hanging out with the wrong kind of crowd. Those like, maybe college friends who are, like, still making, like, you know, dick jokes. So it's just kind of like there are a lot of. There's a lot of growth. I think at a crossroad moment.
Anastasia: [00:12:22 - 00:13:23]
Yeah, yeah. We also post exit is such an a. It's a period of an intense growth, so we grow apart away from some of our friends. It's just natural. So. And again, for me, looking back, like, my first exit was 14 years ago now, and I definitely struggled so much to find belonging. And my biggest struggle was actually not the lack of people. I had lots of people around me, but it took a while to realize that I need at that time in my life a very particular type of people. Those I can relate to, who can relate to my situation. Because without that, I found I couldn't quite have the depth I wanted. And the pain that I had was different from their pain. So I am very curious because you've. You've given it so much thought. Do you have a framework that you would share with other people in this situation? Like how to think about recreating your social circle? That works.
Dan: [00:13:23 - 00:13:24]
Yes.
Anastasia: [00:13:24 - 00:13:25]
For stacks it.
Dan: [00:13:25 - 00:13:40]
And I love frameworks. And I'm going to. I'm going to sing for you. And I'm going to sing for you. Because when I was in business school and there were so many frameworks, my friend Matt and I came up with a song about frameworks.
Anastasia: [00:13:41 - 00:13:42]
Please do. I love it.
Dan: [00:13:42 - 00:18:01]
So, okay, let me just give you the setting. So there's a. A man sitting on a bench and he's thinking, you know, what am I going to do here? I don't really. I'm so confused. I wish I had something to help you make a decision. And then he kind of gets up and he Goes, I know what I need. I need a framework. And it's like a framework, I need a framework. And it becomes a musical ballad. So I love frameworks. They help me kind of think about things. So, yeah, I developed a framework for, for belonging. And the first step is understanding where you find belonging right now. And the way you, the way I urge people to think about it is like a fuel tank. And the fuel tank takes different kinds of fuels. And the average person has about, has a, has like 9 or between 7 and 9 fuels, but the range is from 2 to 17. So, you know, I have a lot because I have a high need to belong, which is a, which is a psychological kind of construct for how much we need belonging. But basically you put all your activities that give you belonging in a fuel tank. You then kind of put in a percentage of how much each gives you. So, for example, my relationship with my wife is, you know, my family is probably like 30%. My, my relationship with Tiger 21 is maybe like 5% or, you know, and so on and so forth. So you kind of put this together and there's usually going to be some emptiness. And that emptiness represents loneliness or as I like to refer to it, belonging opportunity. So first step one is figuring out your belonging tank to see where you currently get belonging. Yeah, Step two is understanding what I refer to as your belonging archetype. And there are four belonging archetypes. And each of these archetypes are important because they inform how you should find belonging based on who you are. The first belonging archetype is a chimp chimpanzee. The second belong, and I call those eager belongers. The second belonging archetype are meerkats. I call those anxious belongers. The third type of archetype is snow leopards, and I call them reluctant belongers. And finally, the fourth archetype are wolves, which I refer to as independent belongers. And just by the mere fact that I share these animals with, with our listeners, your listeners, I'm sure some images came up in their mind. So you think about the chimp and you think about, you know, monkeys running around in the trees, flirting, playing, helping, working, eating, chilling. And they're just like they love. They get energy from being around other people and they kind of over index on interpersonal relationships. Then you think about the meerkats. They also live in a big group, but it's underground. They're very nervous. They're looking around. They don't, you know, they're very nervous and they need validation from other people. Snow leopards, they are reluctant. They usually kind of just get together to mate and then they go do their own thing, they're on their own. And finally wolves, they can either be part of a pack or be on alone. So that's why I picked those, those animals to represent each of the archetypes. So once you figure out your archetypes I, then that's, that's step two over the framework. Step three is revisiting your fuel tank to edit things that may not be aligned with your archetype. And I walk readers through what I call the five C's which I will share with you. But I forgot but it's basically. Does this make you feel charged? Do you want to go ahead and tell people about it? You know, there's a five, five things you can kind of test whether a fuel works for you or not. So then it's about removing some things that may not be a good fit, like that old college, you know, group you're still a part of. And then it's about adding and experimenting with new things. That's step four. So taking your archetypes, seeing what activities align with it and then trying them out to fil your belonging fuel tank. There are a couple bonus things which I'm not kind of which I can go into later. We touched on one of them which is like scanning your environment about how you can change your environment to increase your probability of finding belonging. But those are the four stages. So just to repeat understanding your fuel tank, figuring out your archetype, removing some things that may not be a good fit and then experimenting with new things that may be a better fit based on who you are.
Anastasia: [00:18:01 - 00:18:10]
That's fantastic. I love it. A question for you. These archetypes, do you think we always have the same archetype our whole life?
Dan: [00:18:10 - 00:20:01]
No. No, because. So let's get into just a little science. So the one thing about my book that's different than self help books in my, you know, my, my view is that it's, it's got 120 work cited. So I'm not writing a book for my intuition. I'm writing a book for, from the science and I make it palatable to, to readers. And everybody can go on my website, on the book's website, download some free chapters, take a quiz to see what your archetype is. The quiz just reveals what you should do so you don't have to buy the book. But. And there's also all like the digital kind of exercises and stuff. But anyway. Yes. So the way you figure the way the belonging archetype is figured out is it very simple, Two by two matrix on the X axis is your attachment style. And I simplified it. There are really four attachment style. I simplified it to either secure or insecure. And then the second one, this is the Y axis, is your need to belong, which I touched on earlier, which again, you can take a quick quiz, figure out where you are. It's either a high need to belong or a low need to belong. There's on a straight strength on the scale of 1 through 5. Below 2.5 is low, above 2.5 is high. So these, this is what the archetype decides. This is these, these are the constructs that, that inform our archetype. So to answer your question, whether it can change, absolutely. You know, perhaps your need to belong changes once you have a family. Perhaps you need to belong changes when you are, you know, traveling and kind of doing contemplative practices when you're in a, you know, you're, when you're doing some, you know, work on yourself. And maybe your attachment style changes through therapy, through the right relationship, through psychedelics, whatever you're doing. So, yes, it can change. It's harder to change, but it can change.
Anastasia: [00:20:02 - 00:20:35]
Because I would imagine that we all become a bit more anxious when we just objectively don't have enough people, like after an exit and not enough people who satisfy us our need for belonging. So I can absolutely see how early on after an exit, we would be in some kind of anxious situation. But if we do the right work and introspection and successfully move forward, then we'll probably be moving closer to the wolf.
Dan: [00:20:35 - 00:21:40]
Would you agree that's the best one? I think wolf's the best one. Even though I'm a meerkat, I think wolf's the best one because, like, you can do whatever you want and still kind of find belonging and you can utilize most of the fuels. So you raise a good point. And I think that's why the environmental scan is really important. Because the environmental scan takes into consideration every, everything from your socioeconomic status to your consciousness level. And, and that's where there is the most intervention opportunity. So, for example, one of the things I think is important post exit is to move. If you move, you can just hit the reset button on your life. Now, of course, there's many, you know, things, you know that are important. Like, you know, I'm not, you know, like you might have, you know, you might be in a, in a, in a complicated family where you need to Help, you know, aging parents or you might have some step kid. Well, look, I'm not gonna, whatever it is. But I'm not saying just move. I'm just saying it's one very easy way.
Anastasia: [00:21:40 - 00:21:40]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:21:41 - 00:22:42]
To kind of reset your sense of belonging. So when I moved to Idaho, I, I hit the reset button on my belonging and I. And I'm a starter. Not everybody's a starter, but I start stuff and I, I experiment with stuff. So I joined a, like a supper club, which wasn't for me. I tried to like co chair the local entrepreneur conference. That wasn't for me. I joined the local YPO chapter and they kicked me out because I was a bad culture fit and people hate me and, and then I. But then I started a men's group and now the men's group is thriving. 27 men. We just had our monthly meeting yesterday and it's just such a good energy, such. And so anyway, so you know, met my wife obviously got a home that I love in the middle kind of like of nature a little bit here in the Idaho foothills. So yes, I think that it is interpersonal relationships really play an important part and a reset on your, on your environmental. Environmental situation can help.
Anastasia: [00:22:43 - 00:22:54]
Interesting. So on the scale from 0 to 10, where are you in terms of the level of satisfaction of the need for belonging today?
Dan: [00:22:54 - 00:25:01]
Come on, you can't put me on the spot like that. I have to, I have a pretty full tank, to be honest. Okay. You know, I have a pretty full tank. So just to kind of give the audience an idea I mentioned, you know, call it 30%, 40% for my family, obviously investing more time in that. I have my new company that gives me a sense of belonging with my business partners. I have a community of entrepreneurs and invest investments that I support and give back. I'm in a 12 step program for recovery from sex addiction and I'm able to, you know, have fellowship in that group. I have a, it's very strong relation with my sponsor in that group. I have my men's group. You know, I can go. I have YPO, I have Tiger 21. I have my groups and forms within that. You know, I have some connections to like influencers. That's actually a way to find belonging is kind of like feeling a connection to somebody. I have my favorite fictional characters that I love. That's a way to find belonging through fiction, work or tv. I have my interests, like I really enjoy reef keeping. I have a couple of saltwater tanks and that gives me a sense of belonging with My fish, so. And that leads to like scuba diving and so there's all. These are all the different ways I find belonging. I keep in touch with my like gaming community. When I used to have a gaming team, we're still on the Discord after 20, 27 years of playing games together. So I have, I get belonging from a ton of places and I, because I'm a meerkat and I have a high need to belong, I get a lot of belonging from group membership, as you can probably tell. And I'll just add one more thing. My religion, of course, I mean the contemplative, my prayer, my prayer practice, my Judaism, my connection to Israel and then also the. I forgot. Oh, like living in nature and being connected to that. Also music festivals, I don't go to them like I used to. But this idea of collective effervescence, of being around people and being on the same wavelength, which has been proven scientifically, that gives me sensible. So all this stuff, you know.
Anastasia: [00:25:02 - 00:25:14]
So Dan, this is really fascinating. I have to ask you how you define belonging because most people wouldn't agree that the relationship with fish would satisfy that need or even with influences.
Dan: [00:25:15 - 00:27:57]
Well, they're wrong. And the reason they're wrong is because there are six paths to belonging. Three traditional and three non traditional. And I will agree with them that there may be like a placebo effect of sorts. We need more research to prove that non traditional belonging paths actually fill our true belonging need because it is a fundamental human need and social in its nature, but they may replace it. So let me give you, just let me list the six paths. The traditional paths are interpersonal relationships. Those are your close friends and family, micro interactions that's like, or I call them casual encounters. Running into a barista, going to a tiger conference, saying hi, Anastasia, not really catching up, but feeling, you know, popular. But like seeing hi, you know, saying hi to neighbors, things like that, waving to people in the car, if that's your kind of community. The next is group membership. So whether it's being a part of a larger group, whether it's being part of a, you know, a recovery program, whether it's, you know, going to rehab and being friends with that class or your, you know, alumni network or your UIPO group or your events that you go to regularly, that's the group membership. So those are the traditional paths. There are non traditional paths which are self esteem. Because when we feel better about ourselves, we feel a sense of belonging. So everything from wearing brands, driving luxury cars, flying a flag, getting awards, speaking this Right here is filling my belonging, my belonging tank. I'm speaking to you. I feel like an influencer. I feel important. And that's kind of key piece of my belonging. Next is what is referred to as symbolic bonds. Those are either relationships. Those are relationships either with fictional characters or real characters that we can't really connect with, but we feel a connection to. So, you know, I'm a big fan of show Peaky Blinders and I love Tommy Shelby. I'm getting a Tommy Shelby tattoo on my ankle. Like, like, you know, and I really love that character. So my wife like reads 100 books a year and she super connects to like the, the character she reads about. You know, people like have their favorite Game of Thrones character. So that's. Or influencers, right. Like following somebody, feeling connection to that community that the person is running. And then finally it's contemplative practices. So a spiritual connection, nature, stargazing, anything that makes us feel like we're part of the collective consciousness is. Is also fills our belonging tank. So those are the six paths to finding belonging. And the non traditional ones are just as interesting in my view as the traditional ones.
Anastasia: [00:27:57 - 00:28:11]
So to me it sounds like you define belonging as feeling like a subjective feeling that you belong to this world. So in, in a very spiritual sense, it would be feeling connected to something.
Dan: [00:28:12 - 00:29:00]
So you're right. The thing that's missing in your definition is the other piece of it. So belonging is like a two puzzle pieces coming together. It's about fit. So it is a feeling and an experience because as we feel belonging, we experience it if we're in the right setting and then it's this kind of positive feedback loop. So belonging to define it is a feeling of connectedness that is reciprocal. And where we feel accepted, valued and seen, we feel accepted by the environment we're in. We feel seen for who we are and we feel valued for our contribution. So that is. That's the way I define belonging. And it's basically a culmination of all the different ways belonging has been defined for the last few decades.
Anastasia: [00:29:00 - 00:29:12]
We could talk ourselves into feeling that we belong. Would you agree with that? Like if I really believe I belong?
Dan: [00:29:12 - 00:29:14]
No, you have to get what you saying.
Anastasia: [00:29:14 - 00:29:21]
It. It has to have this objective element so somebody else is involved or something else is involved.
Dan: [00:29:21 - 00:30:33]
I've never thought about that. That's a really good point. For the traditional paths, absolutely. If you're in Tiger and you get kicked out, you clearly didn't belong. You know, Ypo, you clearly didn't Belong. You're, you know, you're a country club. You clearly didn't belong. So there is this kind of idea where like there was rejection. And one of the kind of what I call belonging intelligence skills is rejection, navigation, and that's, that's navigating both things that you reject and things of that reject you. So the traditional paths, absolutely, there's kind of signals that you belong in non traditional paths. It's a little harder, but it's, it is a feeling. And, and, and, but you don't kind of get that, get that, you know, opt in the kind of validation as much as you would do from traditional because, you know, Tommy Shelby from Peaky Blinders can't tell you you belong, but it might lead to being, you know, involved on the subreddit on Reddit or something like that, where I then kind of have the. Because of my connection to Peaky Blinders, I can go ahead and be a part of a group of fans. Like, for example, I'm a huge fan of Tony Hinchcliffe, the comedian, and I'm like, I, you know, chat on Reddit and go to his shows and stuff. Some part of that community. And he doesn't know me from Adam.
Anastasia: [00:30:33 - 00:30:54]
Yeah. Because I'm trying to think about your understanding of belonging comparing to, for example, contentment. Right. Contentment we can fully control because we can, through training and work, we can feel content regardless of whatever happens around us. But this is not your definition of belonging.
Dan: [00:30:55 - 00:31:27]
Okay. So you're a step ahead of everybody. Belonging, authentic belonging leads to joy. And joy is different than happiness or contentment because it's a state and happiness and contentment maybe more happiness than contentment, but happiness can kind of come and go. But when we feel like we belong, when our belonging tank is full with the right stuff, we can experience joy. And that's the goal of belonging, is to find, to be in a perpetual state of joy.
Anastasia: [00:31:27 - 00:31:37]
Amazing. So you are pretty much there. You said your tank is full. So in my scale from 0 to 1, and I want to put you on the spot again.
Dan: [00:31:37 - 00:31:37]
Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:31:37 - 00:31:38]
You're close to 10.
Dan: [00:31:38 - 00:31:40]
I am sorry, I never answer. I'm like, I'm like a nine.
Anastasia: [00:31:40 - 00:31:42]
Yeah, you're like a nine.
Dan: [00:31:42 - 00:31:53]
But I'm also like, look, I'm, I'm like. I was diagnosed bipolar, so I'm on mood stabilizers. I have an anxiety disorder, so I'm on anxiety pills. So like, that probably helps me, like, kind of be, you know, happy.
Anastasia: [00:31:53 - 00:31:54]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:31:54 - 00:32:01]
And not have, like, mood swings. But yeah, I, I'm I'm generally, I do feel like I have a very strong sense of belonging.
Anastasia: [00:32:01 - 00:32:08]
Let's talk about your sex addiction. Do you think your sex addiction actually came from that heightened need for belonging.
Dan: [00:32:08 - 00:33:58]
That you're like the best interviewer? Yes. So let me just kind of tell the, the audience just some, some background. So I'm adopted, which means I didn't have a sense of belonging from the time I was in the womb because my mom was like, you don't belong here. My, my dad left me when I was 2. He abandoned our family. So I didn't have, you know, a nuclear family and I didn't have any siblings and my mom raised me alone. And then when I was nine, we immigrated to the US from Tel Aviv, Israel. And I obviously had to negotiate two different identities, two different cultures, and I didn't know where I belonged. I kind of was like between two, between two places. So I always felt broken as a result of my adoption, lost as a result of, you know, neglected as a result of my dad leaving and lost because of my immigration. So I always felt broken. Low self esteem and the way my compulsive behavior led me to initially kind of a love addiction in my 20s where I just tried to quickly fall in love and then just leave people and move on to the next thing. Kind of, you know, you know, manipulated people to women to try to, you know, fall for me. And I wasn't really manipulated. I guess it was manipulation, but it was like subconscious because like I actually felt it. So that was in my 20s, in my 30s, and became a sex addiction because any, any addiction, you keep chasing a higher high. So I wasn't, you know, falling in love then kind of getting sex and validation from that and then moving on from that. And then, and then once I was, I got, you know, I got married. It was a pornography addiction because I wasn't going to commit adultery. So that's the progression. And it was, you know, over, over, you know, 20 years of, of addiction. And yeah, it's related to my lack of belonging. Absolutely. And why and chasing that.
Anastasia: [00:33:58 - 00:34:05]
So. So you mentioned that your relationship with your fish satisfies your sense of belonging. And that's okay.
Dan: [00:34:07 - 00:34:08]
Yeah, pets are definitely.
Anastasia: [00:34:08 - 00:34:13]
And sex, sex addiction, I assume, also fed your need for belonging.
Dan: [00:34:13 - 00:34:14]
Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:34:14 - 00:34:19]
Because it's also an acceptable way to satisfy that need for you personally.
Dan: [00:34:19 - 00:35:31]
So let's just talk about the fish real quick since you seem to be very interested in the fish. Give you a sense of belonging because it's pets and pets strengthen your self esteem. And then, and because when I look at my salt, when I look. Dogs are very obviously, you know, give yourselves esteem, but like, cat's a little less so. But when I look at my saltwater tank, I'm like, oh my God, I created a world. You know, all these fish are hanging out and like I. It's kind of, it's kind of like a God complex. And you know, I can control these like 230 gallons of salt water. And yeah, I feel like, you know, I created something and it gives me self esteem. So it's a little far fetched, but that's how I view it as it relates to any kind of addiction, frankly. I don't think it gives you, it gives you a fake sense of belonging. You feel loved, but then you lose it just as fast. So I think that any addiction needs to be addressed. And I would, Excuse me. I would argue most people have some sort of compulsion that is uncontrollable and should be addressed. You know, work, eating, you know, drugs and alcohol, medication, you know, even like people are addicted to these days. They're addicted like, you know, like the gym, like, you know, non stop, like bulking. And it's just like there's so much addiction around and I think it really needs to be addressed.
Anastasia: [00:35:31 - 00:35:42]
So, so where do you draw the line between healthy feeling of that tank for belonging and unhealthy ways like addiction?
Dan: [00:35:43 - 00:36:22]
I think everybody knows intuitively, you know. Okay, I think for me, I didn't know intuitively because I didn't. I mean, if you ask my friends, like I destroyed friendships because I constantly put my addiction ahead and I prioritized it out of many other things, like building relationships, creating intimacy with, with people I dated, creating intimacy with my male friends. So, you know, I, I think so I, I knew that I had this problem. People would have said, don's got a problem, but I don't think that. I think everybody intuitively knows. I mean, anything in without moderation is, you know, dangerous.
Anastasia: [00:36:22 - 00:36:25]
What pushed you to address your sex addiction?
Dan: [00:36:25 - 00:36:56]
I went to a program called PCs, which is called, which is like basically inpatient therapy for like it's 60 over 60 hours of therapy in, in six days. And I, yeah, I like opened up to one of the therapists. There was the first time I was able to open up their therapist and kind of realize it's what I have. And then I just checked out a meeting. You know, if anybody's interested, you know, you can go to any. There's so many different meetings.
Anastasia: [00:36:56 - 00:36:57]
But.
Dan: [00:36:59 - 00:37:12]
I went to an SAA meeting sex Sex Addicts Anonymous and, and realized that I was a sex addict. So then I had a conversation with my wife, like a disclosure, and then started working the steps.
Anastasia: [00:37:12 - 00:37:15]
So it happened quite recently. It happened after your exit.
Dan: [00:37:15 - 00:37:16]
Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:37:16 - 00:37:18]
When you actually had the time. When you had the time and space.
Dan: [00:37:18 - 00:37:20]
My nine month chip for survival.
Anastasia: [00:37:20 - 00:37:21]
Nine month chip. Okay.
Dan: [00:37:21 - 00:37:22]
Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:37:22 - 00:37:30]
All right. Yeah. Because I wonder if. If the fact that you have more freedom now helped you address that sex addiction.
Dan: [00:37:31 - 00:37:47]
Well, sure, but I think it also would have been dangerous. Right. Like if I'm. I mean, for a while it didn't help. It fueled my freedom. My, my freedom fueled my addiction because I had all the time in the world. I had money, I. I mean, I never paid for anything, but I was able to like go on trips, take my friends on trips and kind of.
Anastasia: [00:37:47 - 00:37:50]
So it made it worse at first that you had that freedom.
Dan: [00:37:50 - 00:37:51]
Yeah.
Anastasia: [00:37:51 - 00:37:53]
And I guess didn't help. Probably.
Dan: [00:37:54 - 00:38:00]
Yeah. Ever since I started talking about it, I mean, I have so many founders coming to me and saying like, hey, I have an addiction. Like, can you help me?
Anastasia: [00:38:00 - 00:38:02]
A different type of addiction or sex addiction.
Dan: [00:38:03 - 00:38:05]
Nobody talks about sex addiction. Nobody talks about it.
Anastasia: [00:38:06 - 00:38:12]
I know. That's why I keep asking you questions. I'm so fascinated that you're so honest and open about it.
Dan: [00:38:12 - 00:38:25]
There's no other way. I mean, it's serious. 25% of searches in the world are pornography. I mean, we're in a world where men are very close to choosing pornography over, you know, intimacy with women or whatever.
Anastasia: [00:38:25 - 00:38:30]
Do you think that, do you think the root cause is a belonging crisis?
Dan: [00:38:32 - 00:39:43]
Yes. I mean, the whole inc celibate movement is a result of the 80:20 rule. 80% of men do not meet anybody on dating sites. Men don't have the skill, especially post Covid, to go approach women. They're not, you know, they're not going out. They're trying to rely online. I mean, you know, look at the stock market and all the dating. Dating sites are just tanking. And that's because people are kind of like have Tinder fatigue, swiping fatigue, because it doesn't work for most people. And then they're isolated and they resort to drugs and suicide and, and alcoholism. And it's why we have more deaths of despair now than in any. Than ever before among men. And men are not coming of age at the right time. I mean, later, as they used to, as fast as they used to. More people are. Less people are married than ever before. It's a huge, it's a huge problem. It's a huge problem. And, and, and I think it's because of compulsion. Okay, so sorry. Compulsion is created by the lack of, the lack of belonging. So people are trying to fill their tank vis a vis things that are kind of misconceived belonging paths, which we talked about earlier.
Anastasia: [00:39:44 - 00:39:56]
Do you think the way our society, I mean, the Western society, the US Society sees masculinity today helps or hurts the problem?
Dan: [00:39:56 - 00:40:59]
No question it hurts. I mean, you know, men are. Masculinity is under attack. Men. Look, men are always going to be men. Okay? Yeah, like, you can't force men to not be sure you can, you can, you can stop assault, DV abuse. You need to stop that. Of course, you need to. Stricter rules, education, whatever. But you can't stop the men, you know, biological nature to like, want women and chase women. So, yes, I mean, there's a war on masculinity. You know, men feel left behind, not heard, and as a result feel attacked. And it's why, like people like Andrew Tate and you know, who's a. And Donald Trump, who is literally a serial abuser, they get the backlash is very real.
Anastasia: [00:40:59 - 00:42:51]
You know, I'm a mother of three boys, as you know, and my older one is 18 now, so he's an adult. And I have to say that my boys have taught me to really appreciate how important, but also how beautiful masculinity really is. I'm so grateful to them because I've seen how three men developed over time and I understood them in ways I never understood before. And I have to say, largely thanks to my husband, but also maybe helps thanks to my own realization and learning from my boys. At some point, we consciously made the decision that we are going to really support our boys being boys. And if the society attacks them, we'll do anything and everything to help them feel proud of being men and understanding what masculinity actually is. And I have to say, it worked. And it's. I, I love seeing how now they channel this beautiful masculine energy into entrepreneurship and relationships and all the things they're doing. And they also feel now the difference between them and many other boys around them who were not raised that way, which for me makes it even more important for the society to open their eyes and see that we're really failing our boys in a way that will be very dangerous for the society at large and actually really horrible for women. Because women don't want weak men. We want men that are. That have self esteem, that are proud of being men who are not you know, sex. Sexually addicted because they feel uncomfortable, even incompetent, in dealing with. With the opposite sex because the society puts so much pressure on men to not be themselves.
Dan: [00:42:52 - 00:43:13]
You're absolutely right. And I have several things. Thank you for sharing that. So a couple of reading suggestions for the audience. Richard Reeves of Boys and Men is a great book, not just about the masculinity problem, but how to solve it. David Data's the Way of the Superior man is about.
Anastasia: [00:43:14 - 00:43:16]
Totally agree. Brilliant, brilliant book.
Dan: [00:43:17 - 00:44:12]
So, you know, there's. There's also no more Mr. Nice Guy, which is a little more underground, but that's a good one, too. The show Adolescence on Netflix really talks about this and the INEL movement and how women bullying men for INEL in celibacy is really creating a problem. Let me be very clear. Masculinity is vulnerability. Masculinity is intimacy. It's about. Masculinity is really about giving in literally and physically and figuratively. And. And there is a reason why nature created us the way it did, but it is about a balance. And the masculine energy works really well with feminine energy. But we both need. Both sexes need both in order to be highly functioning adults.
Anastasia: [00:44:12 - 00:44:38]
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. But most men will have masculine energy as their dominant energy, and it cannot be. It cannot be suppressed because that's one of the reasons we have loneliness epidemic. And, you know, the baloney crisis that, that you are so generously trying to solve. And I love it that you're talking about it so openly and writing the book and.
Dan: [00:44:38 - 00:45:13]
Thank you. Well, I think important. Well, thank you. I think the key is for the way to solve the belonging crisis is for each person to take it upon themselves to solve it for themselves. It's bottom up. It's not top down. It's not like presidential address. You know, that's going to change. It's not like a UN resolution. It's. It's. It's a. It's a. It's a grassroots movement from each individual to find their sense of belonging and do the work.
Anastasia: [00:45:14 - 00:45:17]
Can we now switch to a completely different topic?
Dan: [00:45:17 - 00:45:17]
Sure.
Anastasia: [00:45:18 - 00:45:32]
Which is very pragmatic and financial. Most of my guests on this show admit that after an exit, they went down financially before going up. If they went up, not everyone did.
Dan: [00:45:32 - 00:45:33]
How about I feel better about myself?
Anastasia: [00:45:36 - 00:45:41]
How about you? It happened to me too, by the way. I'm definitely one of those.
Dan: [00:45:41 - 00:45:49]
So honestly, I swear I don't remember how much money I made when I sold. I swear.
Anastasia: [00:45:49 - 00:45:51]
Okay, I never had that one on this show.
Dan: [00:45:51 - 00:46:18]
That being said, that being said, I am worth roughly, depending on the stupid policy, I am worth roughly like 19, 20 million. And that's roughly where I was, I was like more 20 where I think, I don't remember, but I'm in Tiger, so you have to be 20. So I was like, I've been like 20. Let's just call it 20, you know, up and down depending on the value of like assets and stuff.
Anastasia: [00:46:18 - 00:46:19]
Yeah, yeah.
Dan: [00:46:20 - 00:47:45]
And roughly, let's just say I sold. And I was that. I think it was a little less, but let's just say I sold. So it is true, I mean the idea that in seven, well, eight years, because six years because I had a million and a half in deferred income, so. And I had another million and a half that I left on the table, but let's just call it, you know, so I million. So from, from 19, where I got my last million and a half, for the last six years, I've essentially maintained my net worth. And that's because of several things, but most importantly. Well, it's because of stupidity. I put money towards stupid investments like friends and family. Just trying to show off whatever. I, I over indexed on philanthropy a little too quickly. I went on a shopping spree of dumb. Like I bought a boat for $160,000 that I had 11 hours on, that I just sold for $95,000. I bought a replica of the spaceship Apollo for $160,000 that has been sitting in storage for five years. So but by the way, I only put 50% down on that. But I need to pay it once it arrives. So I went on a shopping spree. I bought multiple properties. I bought a property in New York that I couldn't support. You know, I could, but it was just like eating away 22 grand a month.
Anastasia: [00:47:45 - 00:47:46]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:47:46 - 00:48:13]
So stupid investments, deal toys and a lifestyle that I don't sh. I don't fly private, I don't even fly first class. But a lifestyle that doesn't shy away from, you know, nothing crazy. I mean, I'm wearing a freaking T shirt like nothing crazy. But look, my wife and I did 11 IVF cycles. We used a surrogate. That right there is half a million dollars.
Anastasia: [00:48:13 - 00:48:14]
Oh wow.
Dan: [00:48:15 - 00:48:21]
You know, we're going to do another surrogate, a couple more IVFs. That's going to be like 700, $700,000.
Anastasia: [00:48:22 - 00:48:24]
Yeah, but that one is worth it.
Dan: [00:48:24 - 00:48:25]
Of course.
Anastasia: [00:48:25 - 00:48:27]
Different from the boat.
Dan: [00:48:27 - 00:48:46]
I mean. Yeah, that, that should be like my net return from like a normal portfolio, liquid portfolio of like 10 million. That should be, like, my annual return, you know, so, like. Yeah, I mean, so the bottom line is I'm worth roughly the same, but I've also adopted a die with zero mentality. And I don't mean it like everybody else. I mean it.
Anastasia: [00:48:48 - 00:48:49]
Okay.
Dan: [00:48:49 - 00:49:57]
My grandfather used to say, you know, in Judaism, we. We don't have a coffin. We are wrapped in a shroud. The body's wrapped in a shroud when we're dead. And my grandfather used to say, there are no pockets in the shroud. And he was like. He was. He was like a male, like, nurse and, like, came to Israel with, like, pennies in his pockets, so. And his wife, my grandmother, was like, a painter. So, yeah, he just. You know, people heard that, like, let make the last check bounce. You know, I. I want to truly die with zero or maybe die with, like, a million. You know, that's kind of like zero for me. But, I mean. And ideally, I preserve my nutrition. I'll always have 20. But, yes, to answer your question, stupidity led to keeping. The stupidity and risk led me to, you know, keeping my nut. I also had a lot of luck. I invested in NASDAQ, like, you know, three years ago, and it's gone up, like, 300%. So I've also had a lot of luck. I bought some great land that I was able to sell. I bought a piece of property for 350. I sold it for 750. You know, so there's been upside, and I've had some good decisions.
Anastasia: [00:49:58 - 00:50:04]
Exactly. Maybe it's not just luck. You made good decisions and you made bad decisions, and you're basically. You're breaking even.
Dan: [00:50:05 - 00:50:06]
Yep, that's right.
Anastasia: [00:50:06 - 00:50:36]
Okay, cool. Interesting. Can we talk about Die with Zero? Because I find that people misunderstand that book in two different ways. One way is that it actually does not talk about not leaving anything for the kids. Right. Because actually, the author specifically talks about how kids can be taken care of. So can we talk about this? I know your daughter is only five months, and maybe you haven't had a chance to develop.
Dan: [00:50:36 - 00:50:37]
No, no.
Anastasia: [00:50:37 - 00:50:40]
I mean, philosophy. But I'm curious where you are at the moment.
Dan: [00:50:40 - 00:51:40]
Yeah. So I think about it like, you know, a trust fund for, you know, some. Like, for some. For. For each kid, a small one. A college fund for them to be able to go to college, and then purchases for them throughout their life in key moments that I can see them enjoy, perhaps a down payment on a house, perhaps a small investment in a business, perhaps a car, perhaps, obviously their wedding. So I You know, family, huge family trips, you know, with friends and family. So there are things you. It's all about, you know, that was your result. It's not just about like a negative, like a negative slope of spending or, you know, or like of net worth. It's about a bit of a neg, like a downward, A downward slope, like opposite of a hockey stick. Because you want to spend more money when you're able bodied.
Anastasia: [00:51:41 - 00:51:41]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:51:42 - 00:51:49]
So you can enjoy your money and not like, what are you gonna be 90? Spending money, like, I don't know, on applesauce.
Anastasia: [00:51:49 - 00:53:23]
I think this book is fantastic to break that post exit momentum that many of us have, like, chasing more money, getting richer. Also, we often start panicking after an exit because we suddenly realize that we had this company that grew so fast and now, you know, we have to manage our, our investments and it, it feels like hard work. We feel incompetent. So I like that book as something that breaks the momentum after an exit. And I always recommend people to read it. But yeah, the second way I mentioned that, I think many people misunderstand it and to me it's very important is that later on, sometimes years after an exit, some people who follow that book religiously, but misunderstanding it, I think end up in a place where their life is very empty. Because if you just focus on what next experience can I get from the world? It's actually a very selfish approach. It's like, what else can I get? What else can I accumulate? Maybe not money this time, but experiences. What else can I take from the world? And then there is no sense of contribution, there's no sense of purpose later on. And I've seen actually lots of exited founders going through this. They look at this book as a bible and then you talk to them two years later and they're like, oh, I'm so empty. I'm so bored. There's just that. That much you can enjoy all these travels and experiences. So tell me how you feel about it.
Dan: [00:53:23 - 00:53:54]
Let me, let me comment on that. So I have three comments. First of all, as it comes to experiences, they're useless without other people. So it's less about like, you know, I don't know, like, whatever. It's like a trip around the world than it is about a trip around the world with your family or with your friends. And I love Bill, Bill Perkins's idea, by the way. I think he's a billionaire and he'll never die with zero, but I love Bill Perkins's idea that you should throw a huge party for your friends and family.
Anastasia: [00:53:55 - 00:53:55]
Yeah.
Dan: [00:53:55 - 00:54:43]
And like for big occasions. Because again, it's about the memories, so less about the experiences. The other piece of it that I used, I used two and a half million dollars in my net worth to invest in my new company. You know, and I'm taking a risk. I'm building off retreat. I'm building venues for off sites and retreats, and I'm doing everything myself. So I'm not. I have no debt, I have no investors. I'm doing it all. So that's. I'm creating value with the value that I already built and then another piece of it. And by the way, a belonging path is philanthropy. And I give more money away than, you know, than I used to. And I mentioned I over indexed on it, but still, that is also a way to die with zero. And you know, Warren Buffett, Bill, Bill Gates, they're all doing it. Yeah, they're doing it too.
Anastasia: [00:54:45 - 00:55:05]
I love hearing this because I don't like when people use this book as an excuse to stop being useful for the world and then they just turn into this parasite. These parasites that are saying, oh, it's all about getting more interesting experiences in our lives and we deserve it. It doesn't take us to a good place. It's okay temporarily, but it doesn't take us to a good place.
Dan: [00:55:05 - 00:55:22]
Yeah, I agree. Especially when your purpose is like, off and having fun. That's not a purpose. You know, my purpose in life is to help as many people as I can find their sense of belonging. That's my purpose in life. So, you know, sure. I'm not, I'm not going to get it by, like, traveling, you know, to the jungle.
Anastasia: [00:55:23 - 00:55:26]
So is this your motivation for the new business?
Dan: [00:55:27 - 00:55:27]
Yes.
Anastasia: [00:55:28 - 00:55:31]
Is there a. Still a financial motivation in it, as a second.
Dan: [00:55:31 - 00:55:35]
Oh, yeah. I mean, if it's been successful, I'll do, you know, a million bucks in income a year.
Anastasia: [00:55:36 - 00:55:36]
Mm.
Dan: [00:55:37 - 00:55:40]
Well, I mean, after partners, much less. But you know my point.
Anastasia: [00:55:40 - 00:55:57]
Yeah, no, I understand. Okay, so. And you feel what is really driving you? And is it, is it both the financial motivation and the, and the, the sense of purpose that you get from doing that?
Dan: [00:56:00 - 00:56:39]
So several things drive me. The first one is my love for the hospitality industry and my love of seeing teams come together, achieve their sense of belonging, and then achieve their goals. So that's number one. Number two, it is about more security and safety of my family. And number three, it's more about much more philanthropy. And those are the three things that motivate me. And I just love Building stuff. And I love new concepts and this is a new lodging concept. I think it's a new asset class that people don't really think about. So yeah, I think for all those reasons, I think it's innovative and exciting. I mean it's the first kind of like it's the first chain of retreat venues. Doesn't exist without the programming.
Anastasia: [00:56:40 - 00:56:53]
And I can absolutely see how it would ride this wave of retreats because after Covid, people don't seem to be able to get enough of events together.
Dan: [00:56:54 - 00:56:54]
That's right.
Anastasia: [00:56:54 - 00:57:01]
Especially if that trend stays, then you may be in a very good place with this business.
Dan: [00:57:01 - 00:57:10]
Yeah, it's not just for like you know, doing ayahuasca on a weekend with strangers. It's like it is coming together to review quarterly goals, review annual goals, do those team meetings.
Anastasia: [00:57:12 - 00:57:15]
So it's more for, for business related retreats.
Dan: [00:57:15 - 00:57:20]
Weekday, weekday and then weekend is social or like forum or something like that.
Anastasia: [00:57:21 - 00:57:23]
So. So how long ago did you start that?
Dan: [00:57:24 - 00:57:31]
Started it about a year ago when I purchased the property. And we should be open October 1st this year, 2025.
Anastasia: [00:57:31 - 00:57:32]
Oh, that's exciting.
Dan: [00:57:33 - 00:57:37]
The first one. The first one's Boise, Idaho and then we want to do 10 more in four years.
Anastasia: [00:57:38 - 00:57:55]
Okay. So I want to talk to you about what lessons you've learned in terms of the business. Like what is it you are taking into a new business from your original business from the, from social tables and what it is you are not taking with you to this business intentionally.
Dan: [00:57:57 - 00:58:57]
So obviously, first of all, respecting everybody's sense of belonging and prioritizing whatever they want to prioritize. I think there is a paradigm shift away from, I think we're moving back towards the transactional nature of work where it's like nine to five, kick ass and then leave and get paid. And people are not looking for as much belonging in the workplace as they used to. And that's totally fine. I support that. So I think work is becoming more transactional, which is how we used to be. It's post Covid where people had this great realization that they need, they need something else in their life. So that's number one and respecting everybody's desire for belonging. Step. The second one is obviously moving from software to hardware because I'm used to be a SaaS business in SaaS and now I'm, you know, in lodging. So I am taking a lot of my hospitality intuition and my hospitality contacts and my hospitality mentors and leveraging that in my new business.
Anastasia: [00:58:58 - 00:59:12]
So if you had to choose between you Being a natural creator, operator or investor. Talking about archetypes. Operator, which one would you, would you be in?
Dan: [00:59:12 - 00:59:58]
So there's three, there's four archetypes. I like Les McEwen's predictable success and in it he says there are four kind of archetypes. There's operator, visionary, processor and. And synergist. Synergist is all three. I think I'm, I love, I'm an operator, I love operating. I think I'm a synergist. Even though I didn't get that on the test. I think people are just visionaries or lame. Like you need to, you can't just be like, I don't know, the expectation other people should build you stuff. I like to roll up my sleeves. Unless you're a minority, you know, minority stakeholder. But yeah, I mean, so I'm an operator, I love operating. I. Nothing is beneath me. I'll buy digital ads, I'll edit the website. You know, I'll unlock a bunch of stuff for my teammates. But I'm an operator.
Anastasia: [00:59:59 - 01:00:09]
So so far, are you finding doing your repeat businesses because that's not your first business after the exit easier than the first business or not?
Dan: [01:00:12 - 01:00:20]
It's harder because it's my own money. And yeah, I, I'm really scared that I'm not going to do well.
Anastasia: [01:00:20 - 01:00:21]
Are you going to raise?
Dan: [01:00:23 - 01:00:58]
Not, not for the first one, maybe the second one, our structure is interesting because we have a management company that's above the property and each property has got its own, you know, LLC and then the management companies, it's a kind of oversees all the properties. So I can raise from different, I can offer different types of financial instruments or capital instruments. So yeah, maybe, but probably the first thing that makes sense is take out a mortgage because it is in like residential, converted into like these kind of bed and breakfast, if you will, with private bathrooms. But yeah, I'll probably raise eventually, but not right now.
Anastasia: [01:00:59 - 01:01:18]
Okay, makes sense. So you wrote a book and quite a lot of people in the post exit community are thinking of doing that. So for someone who is thinking of doing that, would you say it was a good idea? Yep.
Dan: [01:01:19 - 01:02:00]
So you know, one of the deal toys was a book initially. I'll tell you a funny story. Initially my book was going to be, it was called Founding Alone. It was about, about how to start your own business without founders, like I did. And then it was going to be, it was called Building Belonging and it was about how to create belonging on teams. And then I realized that thing where I was like, I can't have belonging at work before I have it personally. So let me my first book be Finding Belonging. You know, finding Belonging. It's what it says here. And then I can do a building belonging. That's why I'm on bonus chapters about how to build belonging on teams. Spoiler alert. It's. It's team building events, and that's kind of like my funnel for my new business, you know?
Anastasia: [01:02:00 - 01:02:01]
Okay.
Dan: [01:02:02 - 01:03:20]
But I think a lot of people think that their story is interesting and it's not like your memoir. Nobody wants to read it. I do have personal anecdotes that start every chapter, but people don't really like. And that's just to like, level set and show my vulnerability and kind of relate to. To the topic. So I paid like 200, like a quarter million dollars to get this book done. I did a pay to play model with Forbes books, but I ended up writing the book myself, literally every word. Three ghostwriters failed me. They did not capture my voice. It was very heavy research. So, like, that wasn't their thing. And I ended up getting several refunds for some of the experiences that I had. That being said, I have a book, I have an audiobook. I have great graphics. I built the website myself, so I just rolled up my sleeves a lot and it took three years as opposed to 18 months. That being said, if anyone wants to write the book, there has to be like a shtick. There has to be something special. Is it about the industry? Is it about, you know, but nobody wants to hear another kind of founder memoir about how lost they were when they sold and like, and, and, and how their identity was gone. Sure. You went from a human being to, from a human doing to a human being. That's great. But I do think there has to be something special in it.
Anastasia: [01:03:20 - 01:03:26]
And your special is those frameworks you offer to, to find belonging.
Dan: [01:03:26 - 01:03:36]
I mean, it's still the same idea. Like, but to me, it's not just like, oh, you sold your money, you're a millionaire. This will save you. For me. It's like, oh, like anywhere in your life you can pick up this book and find meaning.
Anastasia: [01:03:36 - 01:03:38]
I think it's such a great mission. You're on.
Dan: [01:03:38 - 01:03:41]
Thank you. I sent you a copy. I sent you a digital copyright.
Anastasia: [01:03:42 - 01:03:44]
You haven't. Not yet.
Dan: [01:03:44 - 01:03:47]
Do that. We're going to do that. My goodness, I'm embarrassed.
Anastasia: [01:03:48 - 01:03:50]
How about the physical one with. With a note?
Dan: [01:03:50 - 01:03:52]
You're. You're international. I. It's too expensive.
Anastasia: [01:03:52 - 01:03:53]
It's okay.
Dan: [01:03:53 - 01:03:56]
I. I got. I. I gotta save my money.
Anastasia: [01:03:58 - 01:04:07]
Okay. Dan, this has been absolutely amazing. I need to ask you. I need to ask you the same question I ask everyone at the end of an interview.
Dan: [01:04:07 - 01:04:08]
Oh, it's one of those, huh?
Anastasia: [01:04:08 - 01:04:11]
Exactly. How do you want to be remembered?
Dan: [01:04:21 - 01:04:38]
A great husband. An inspirational dad. A hospitality innovator. Someone who helped people find belonging. And somebody who helped the Jewish people and the state of Israel continue to thrive.
Anastasia: [01:04:39 - 01:04:42]
Beautiful, Dan. Thank you so much.
Dan: [01:04:42 - 01:04:44]
Thank you so much. This was great. You're awesome.
Anastasia: [01:04:44 - 01:04:47]
You're awesome, too. Hope to see you soon.
Dan: [01:04:47 - 01:04:48]
Likewise.
