Chang Kim. Recovering from a $510M Exit
Episode - 30
Chang Kim. Recovering from a $510M Exit
Chang Kim is a serial tech entrepreneur who recently completed his second exit, exceeding $510M.
To recover, CK took a year-long sabbatical.
During his travels, he reflected on his experiences and distilled his insights into clear and powerful ideas.
In this episode, we discussed the importance of soul search, secrets to post -exit happiness, the impact of the sale on his young family, and the excitement of supporting start-up founders.
What We Discussed:
00:00:17: Introduction to CK Kim
00:00:58: CK Kim's journey to becoming an exited founder
00:02:00: First company and Web 2.0 era
00:02:50: Second company and mobile publishing
00:04:00: Moving to LA
00:05:17: Decision to sell Tapas Media
00:07:08: Feelings after selling Tapas Media
00:09:10: Post-acquisition involvement
00:10:14: First weeks after the acquisition
00:11:22: Recovery period and unwinding
00:13:05: Conscious choice to take time off
00:15:03: Transition to being an employee post-acquisition
00:16:00: Thoughts on the exit process
00:17:03: Current post-exit explorations and future plans
00:21:26: Introduction to discussing privacy and entrepreneurship
00:21:40: Challenges of saying no as a Venture Capitalist
00:22:01: Decision to remain a founder instead of a VC
00:22:07: Story of a former VC who disliked it
00:22:45: The VC Game and Investment Returns
00:23:34: Role at Tapas and Transition in Responsibilities
00:24:26: Evolution of the founder's role with company growth
00:26:22: Creativity in Founding vs. Investing
00:28:28: The importance of rest and soul-searching
00:30:00: Achieving breakthroughs through rest and hard thinking
00:31:38: Facing internal struggles and seeking genuine purpose
00:32:08: The significance of speaking to diverse people
00:33:08: Impact of cultural background on career choices
00:34:38: Accidental entry into Internet industry through military exemption
00:38:39: Seeking meaning and purpose in new ventures
00:39:33: Post-exit insecurities and overcoming them
00:42:18: The impact of the exit on family life
00:42:45: Role of the wife in the startup
00:43:46: The moment they realized the deal was closed
00:44:46: Parenting and children
00:47:06: Thoughts on children's future careers
00:49:07: Fulfillment and soul searching
00:51:03: New projects and endeavors
00:58:10: Sharing knowledge and wisdom
00:59:10: Future plans and venture funding
01:00:00: Advice for others in similar situations
01:01:55: The importance of sensitivity and taking things slowly
01:02:26: The value of talking to different people and reading
01:03:20: Reflecting on personal experiences through others' stories
01:04:02: Recommended books and biographies
01:04:49: The impact of getting out of your comfort zone
01:05:49: How do you want to be remembered?
01:08:06: Closing remarks and thank you
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Chang Kim: [00:00:00 - 00:00:06]
It's like a triathlon, right? Like you finish one thing and then you immediately start another thing.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:06 - 00:00:24]
Chang Kim, he's a serial tech entrepreneur who recently completed his second exit exceeding half a billion dollars. To recover, CK took a year long sabbatical. During his travels, he reflected on his experiences and distilled his insights into clear and powerful ideas.
Chang Kim: [00:00:24 - 00:00:32]
When you think about like, hey, I want to sell the company too much, then ironically, those companies never get sold.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:32 - 00:00:33]
Sounds like dating.
Chang Kim: [00:00:33 - 00:00:34]
Exactly, exactly.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:36 - 00:00:56]
In this episode, we discussed the secrets to post exit happiness, the impact of the sale on his young family, and the excitement of supporting startup founders. CK, thank you so much to coming to my show today. I really appreciate it. Really excited about this conversation.
Chang Kim: [00:00:56 - 00:00:58]
Thank you for having me. Super excited.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:00:58 - 00:01:10]
I would love us to start with a brief story of your how you ended up here being an exited, semi retired founder.
Chang Kim: [00:01:10 - 00:03:59]
Yeah, so I started and sold two companies and I got super lucky because the first company we started got acquired in 2008, right before the financial crisis. And the second company we started got acquired in 2021. And we all know what happened in 2022. So timing wise, we got super lucky. But yeah, I've always wanted to start my companies, my own company. And I was always attracted to the whole like, startup and entrepreneurs the world, even when I was working at big companies. So yeah, it was really, really great opportunity for me to start these companies with other awesome people. And my background is more about in content creation space. I love to build content publishing tools for content creators. So the first company we started was a blogging company back in Korea. I'm originally from Korea and we started this company during the Web 2.0 boom, where blogging was all of a sudden a really cool way of creating content for the web. And we started this company in 2006 right around the Web 2.0 was becoming an important trend and we got acquired by Google and we ended up joining the blogger team. And blogger, of course, is a relatively old tool. I mean, even when we were joining, it was a pretty old tool. So our team joined and really helped, kind of revamping updating the tool, blogger tool. And then I started the second company after Google, which was called Tapas Media. And we were in the mobile publishing space, so we helped content creators and storytellers to tell their stories in a serialized format for mobile audience. And we started the company in 2012, and this was when mobile was booming in the US. And, you know, Instagram was picking up very becoming, very popular and maybe like we were around iPhone, like six or five back in 2012, but everyone was going for mobile and, you know, and because we were coming from the content creation space, publishing tool space, we were thinking, okay, so blogging was for Web 2.0 and web for the most part. What is the equivalent version for mobile? So we thought a lot about what does the storytelling and content creation mean for mobile. So we started that company and got acquired by a korean company called Kakao in 2021. So that's been my journey.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:00 - 00:04:06]
You live in LA now. When did you move? Was it in connection with the Google acquisition?
Chang Kim: [00:04:06 - 00:04:41]
No. So Google brought our family to California. So I'm originally from Korea and studied in Michigan, but we started the first company in Korea and we got acquired by Google. And the first couple of years I was working at the Google Korea office, and then I transferred to Mountain View, and that's when I brought my whole family to California. But we were in the northern California Bay area for about ten years, and then we moved to LA in 2020. So it's been about four years.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:04:42 - 00:04:44]
Yeah, fantastic.
Chang Kim: [00:04:44 - 00:05:17]
As you know, like, during the pandemic, a whole bunch of people moved. Right? So I guess we were part of that whole, like, a migration trend. But, yeah, the pandemic started and we were all working from home and, you know, me and my wife, you know, we were, like, thinking, hey, maybe we can bring some change. And, you know, let's go to. Go to LA. Because, you know, LA is relatively close from the Bay area, but still different. So, yeah, we were always kind of thinking, like, maybe we can try different places, different cities, but we finally pulled the trigger.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:05:17 - 00:05:22]
So let's go back to that moment when you sold tapas. How did you feel?
Chang Kim: [00:05:22 - 00:08:19]
No, that was really interesting. I remember taking a long walk. So what happened was our company was growing well and we were going out there to raise funding. This was our series C funding. And then we actually got term sheet really quickly. Luckily, we got term sheet from one of the great venture capital firms. They really liked our growth, so we were pretty much ready to keep going. And then what happened was this company, Kakao, was already our shareholder. So they were strategic investors in our company. So as you know, when you try to raise money, you have to go back to the original shareholders and get the approval from them. So that's when the conversation happened. So we were like, hey, we're trying to raise more money. Keep going. And can you approve this deal? And then as a shareholder, existing shareholder, they wanted to put more investment in. It's like, hey, why do you raise money from other people? Like, we can invest more but then if we took more funding from Kakao, then it was going to be too much shareholding for us. So we kind of resisted that idea. It's like, hey, we want to be independent. We want to raise money from financial investor and keep going. And then there were some back and forth, and then that became like a strategic acquisition discussion. So at that point, I remember me and my wife, we were taking long walks and I giving a lot of thoughts, because on one hand, this is your baby, right? So you want to keep going. And you can almost see like, hey, if we raise this money and then deploy the capital in the right way, let's say after five years, this can become, like, much bigger. Or on the other hand, it's like, hey, we can be acquired and be part of, like, this other company that has a lot more resources than us. So this can be another interesting angle. So, yeah, there was a lot of deliberation and. But we finally made a decision to sell the company because our company was becoming more and more depending on, like, big ip, like, story ips, and it just takes so much capital and time to develop the ips in house. So that was, I think, like, the key decision for us. So, yeah, we decided to sell the company, and from there it was just like a matter of, like, closing the deal, and I. When finally the deal was signed. Yeah. How did it feel? Very interesting feeling, yeah, very happy. Of course. It was great outcome for everybody involved. Yeah, it's like a mix of, like, a different bunch of different feelings, I guess.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:08:20 - 00:08:26]
So you were happy for a while, or are you still happy? Do you have any regrets about selling?
Chang Kim: [00:08:26 - 00:09:10]
I don't have any regret. It was a great outcome for everybody involved, so that was really, really great for myself and our team and, you know, I could see some of our team members becoming like, you know, getting the academic benefit, which made me happy as well. Yeah, of course. Like, after the acquisition, there's the usual sort of, like, you know, we're now part of big company, and then there's, you know, some friction there because, like, culture is different and there has been some of those, obviously, but for the most part, I was really grateful for the opportunity that was given. So, yeah, no regret.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:10 - 00:09:13]
So are you involved on a day to day basis still?
Chang Kim: [00:09:14 - 00:09:32]
No. So I was involved in the company for almost two years, a year and nine months. But then I left in 2023, last year or January, so I'm not involved in the company anymore. So, yeah, after the acquisition, I was involved for about two years, but I.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:09:32 - 00:09:37]
Left how was it just between you and me? I won't tell anyone.
Chang Kim: [00:09:38 - 00:11:22]
No, it was super, like, relieving, of course. Right. The first couple weeks is always interesting. I mean, anybody who has been working for, like, a long time and then, like, you know, you leave the company, the first couple of weeks are always the most, like, weird time because your schedule is empty. Right. And for me personally, I was doing a lot of late night calls because I was working with Korea a lot. And my dinner would be like, 08:00 p.m. at a minimum, because 04:00 p.m. pacific, where I am, like, 04:00 p.m. 05:00 p.m. that's when Asia wakes up and starts working. So it's like a whole another day starting. And, of course, I start my day normally, just like a us team members. I start my day, like, early in the morning. And then you work with the team, and, like, 04:00 p.m. 05:00 p.m. it's like a whole another day starting because you get so many messages and emails coming in. And I lived in that mode for such a long time. So from there to, let's say, January 2 or January 3, you wake up, and then your Google calendar is completely empty and no appointment whatsoever. So, like, you know, that's such a weird feeling, but also very relieving, too. And of course, like, the first couple of weeks, you're like, hey, how should I feel my day? But of course, after that, you find the rhythm, you find the structure. So I wasn't, like, as meticulous as, like, you know, when I was working full time in terms of, like, managing my calendar, but I was able to, you know, kind of get into some sort of rhythm and cycle afterwards. But the first couple of weeks was kind of, like, strange.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:11:22 - 00:11:38]
On your LinkedIn profile, you actually describe yourself as a recovering founder, which I guess is your temporary identity. Right. While you're figuring out where you are, how is that recovery going so far?
Chang Kim: [00:11:38 - 00:12:32]
Yeah, recovery wise, I mean, when you say recovery, I think it can mean different things, right? It's not just like a PTSD kind of thing, necessarily. It's also like unwinding your brain, unwiring your brain in certain ways. Because when you're working on a specific project for a long time, like, your brain is really wired to that specific project. It's like you're going super deep and super narrow. So then it takes certain amount of time to get out of that and unwind yourself so that your brain can be more flexible and then can receive other things. So I think to do that, you need a little bit of time, and that's part of the reason why I wanted to take some time off and then just kind of do nothing so that my brain can be, like, unwind, unwound a little bit.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:12:33 - 00:12:56]
This is very wise, and I'm so happy to hear that you're doing it because I see so many people who are just being carried by this momentum and they jump into some other activity and they make long term commitments without make letting themselves heal and rest and recover and prepare for the next stage. So it's wonderful that you're doing it.
Chang Kim: [00:12:56 - 00:14:54]
Yeah, I think it's like athletes, too, right? Athletes, when they finish, like, a race, then, like, they have adrenaline and they're, like, still, like, pumped up, right? So then, you know, they're like, hey, what do I do next? And then, like, some people, it's like a triathlon, right? Like, you finish one thing and then, like, you immediately start the another thing. But, yeah, I mean, for me, I made a conscious choice to take some time off, probably because I realized I never took any time off. I mean, in my case, it's one of those cases where, like, you finish the deal. Like, you close the deal on Friday and then the next, like, Monday, you start working on this new project. So, like, for me, it was, it was lucky in a sense because everything kind of continued, right? So I was lucky in that sense. But then in the meantime, I didn't have any chance to, like, take some meaningful amount of time off. So I really wanted to take some time off. And the other thing I'm also realizing is, for me, the fact that we got acquired by this big company and then had a little bit of work experience at the big company, of course, there has been those frictions here and there, and then because of a different culture, there has been some clash. But for the most part, that was a blessing because I realized when I see some other entrepreneurs who sold their companies to not just, like, you know, big companies, another big company, but, like, you know, private equity firms or some other circumstances where you are, like, going from, like, 100 to zero, like, the next day, I've seen some cases where, like, the founders have to leave their company, like, tomorrow and then not, like, carry anything. So, like, that's such a, you know, great momentum shift. And for those founders, the identity crisis, and it's like, you know, it's more pronounced. So I think for me, the fact that I was involved in the acquired company, at least a little bit was a blessing.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:14:54 - 00:15:03]
So it didn't bother you that you suddenly had the boss and became an employee? It does seem to bother quite a lot of people.
Chang Kim: [00:15:03 - 00:15:45]
Yeah, that's another thing, because again, this acquired, acquiring company was already a shareholder, so I knew the people really well. So I think that was another factor that made the transition easier. And of course, the working relationship became different because previously it was like partner company. You know them, they're your investor. So there's that relationship. Investor two found the relationship, but now that same person became a boss, somebody that I reported to, so it became like a slightly different working relationship. But just the fact that I knew those people from before, I think that was helpful, sort of at the later.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:15:46 - 00:15:59]
Stage of the company's story. Did you already dream about the exit? Would you say that became your dream? You wanted to do that?
Chang Kim: [00:15:59 - 00:16:49]
Yes and no. I think, I mean, I think it'd be like every single entrepreneur, if they don't think about some sort of exit, I mean, they're like lying to themselves. Right? So it really depends on, like, the terms and like, hey, what are, who is acquiring the company? So anytime a good deal happens, a prospective deal happens, then, you know, all the entrepreneurs that I know, they'll be open to consider at least. But the other thing though, is I've seen, like, other founders who are, who are thinking about it too much. And then I, when you think about like, hey, I want to sell the company too much, then ironically, those companies never get sold, and the companies that get acquired are the companies that don't need to get sold. It's like, you know, I mean, as they say, the companies are only sold, not.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:49 - 00:16:50]
Sounds like dating.
Chang Kim: [00:16:50 - 00:16:51]
Exactly. Exactly.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:16:51 - 00:16:52]
They're too desperate.
Chang Kim: [00:16:54 - 00:17:11]
There's so many, as, you know, like dating, you know, parallels between dating and startups. But yeah, as you mentioned. Exactly. So you shouldn't think about it too much. But in the meantime, you gotta be at least open to consider if there's a good deal coming up.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:17:12 - 00:17:25]
Absolutely. So I'm curious what your dream is now. I know you're very early in this post exit transition, but I'm sure you've started thinking of what that ideal life would be for you.
Chang Kim: [00:17:25 - 00:22:07]
Yeah, so. So I took the entire 2023 off. So that was a really, really good time for me. I did a lot of traveling, I spent a lot of time with my family, but in the meantime, I did a lot of soul searching. I did every single, like, I was, I was reading a lot of materials, and I learned about ikigai. I learned about, you know, a bunch of other kind of framework and I used a lot of those, but for me it was relative is simple, I would say, because I knew that I like no matter what I do, I would stay within the startup industry, especially early stage tech startups, because that's been my identity the whole life and that's something that I still want to do. So regardless of in which capacity I'll be in the industry, I knew that I will always be in the startup industry. So at least like that part was clear. And I think anybody who does like soul searching, I guess like number one thing to consider is to kind of set the boundary conditions. It's like, hey, because it's just difficult to consider everything. Like if you go back to like drawing board and then hey, everything's up in the air, then it's just like they're too overwhelming. So I think the number one step is to think about, hey, what are the grounding factors, what are some of the boundary conditions that I can play with, you know, within? So then, then it became relatively simple choice because I learned that hey, maybe there can be like two or three different paths I can choose from. So at least it's not like a one out of seven, it's just one out of two or three. And those three were, the first path was, you know, some sort of investor venture capital route. Just because a lot of people like me, as they get older, it's like, hey, you know, you're exited the founder, you get older, your brain doesn't really function as well. So they become some sort of like mentor slash investor figure. Just like, you know, sports players, they become like coaches or you do another thing. I mean, you know, you get back into the game and then start, start another company. But this time maybe like, you know, you can recruit like a better team and then like, you know, trusting the team more and giving opportunity to younger people, but you're still like, you know, back in like zero to one game. And I mean, there are other relatively minor kind of like, you know, paths you can take, such as venture studio. I've seen like a whole bunch of people starting venture studios. They're like launching companies off the ground, but then like, I fundamentally working with other entrepreneurs. Or you can also like join big companies or you can like do private equity type of thing where you acquire companies and you know, rather than zero to one, you're doing like a one to ten kind of thing. So there, there are other paths, but for me it really came down to do I want to be some sort of VC or do I want to kind of get back into, like, the game? And I realized, and, you know, this, this was a year long kind of exploration. Like, I looked at, you know, a lot of different aspects. I talked to a bunch of different people, but I realized, yeah, I'm still a builder and I wanted to build another company. Yeah. So that was like, the thing that I wanted to do. But then there's also the other factor, such as, like, what are some of the things that I wouldn't enjoy? So it was as much like, about the things that I wouldn't enjoy as it was about the things I would enjoy. So then I kind of visualized myself being a VC and then, like, thought about, like, the day to day there. And there are certain aspects that I liked, but then there are also certain aspects that I didn't really like. Such as, you know, if you're a VC, you have to kind of like, you know, put yourself out there, become some sort of brand, meeting a lot of people. Um, I'm a relatively private person, so I didn't really know about that aspect of, like, putting yourself out there a lot. And then after that, like, you know, you have to, like, say no to, like, 99% of the people that you meet. And, you know, that was another aspect that I didn't particularly like. And, you know, of course, there's always the aspect of, like, you're, you're never like, you know, if you're a PC, you're never doing things yourself. You're ultimately supporting other entrepreneurs. So you're not in the arena, you're like, supporting from the sidelines. So, yeah, based on those factors, I thought that I would still be a founder.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:22:07 - 00:22:42]
So, yeah, you know, I interviewed someone, the interview is not out yet, who spent a few days being a VC. A few days, sorry, a few years being a VC after their exit. And do you know why they stopped doing it? They just hated saying no all the time. He said that there were all these amazing entrepreneurs and they were so driven and they just had to say no all the time. And he got tired of it, and I thought it was quite interesting.
Chang Kim: [00:22:42 - 00:23:33]
That's a good point. That's a good point. Also, you have to understand the VC game, right? I mean, VC, fundamentally, you're like, working with other people's capital and you're signing up to return, like a large amount of return. Right. So it's like, you know, you have to think about the IRR. If you have, like, an infinite amount of capital and then, hey, you have your own personal thesis, and then you're deploying capital, you know, based on your, your personal conviction or thesis, then it's like all fun, right? But then there's the other aspect, which is the return to capital. And you have to generate these returns and that's where you have to kind of like, you know, so like, ideally there's an overlapping area between your thesis and conviction and, you know, those return areas, areas that can return a lot of capital, but not always. Right.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:23:34 - 00:23:40]
What was your role at Tapas? Were you in a creative role there?
Chang Kim: [00:23:40 - 00:25:27]
No. So my background has always been building this publishing tools, content publishing tools. So I'm more like a product manager. I like to work with UX engineer designers and engineers. So I'm more like a pure kind of product engineering side. But when you're building a content platform, there's always the other aspect, which is about the content and creator management and acquiring ips. So I didn't have a background from that other world. So for those, we had to hire talented people and then trusted them. So yeah, my role has changed. Obviously, anytime you start a company and scale the company, your role as a founder keeps changing. Right. So the first couple years, I think I was a full time pm. I looked at every single kind of aspect of the product and I designed the first product myself and I did everything, obviously, but I was very involved in the product. And then as the company scaled more, then the company becomes your product. So how do you, like, build this machine where like you hire the best people, you continue motivating them? What kind of culture do we want to create and what kind of process do you want to put in place so that people don't step on each other's toes. So at some point your product changes from the actual product to the company. And, yeah, for me, I think that was around like, I would say like 70, 80 people, mark. Until then, like, you're kind of like still involved in day to day a lot, but then after like 80 people, then, you know, you become like the product, the company becomes more of your product, I think.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:25:27 - 00:26:21]
Yeah, but it does sound like you played a creative role because engineering a product is a very creative job if you're involved in it. And then it sounds like you applied the same mindset to a company. I loved how you said that the company becomes your product and then you build that. The reason I asked you that is because it's notoriously hard for natural creatives to switch to investing and actually enjoy it because we, and I'm like that as well, I don't like investing, and I'm not good at it, but I know from my experience and the experience of so many other people that we start feeling suffocated if we do invest in instead of channeling our creativity towards building something. You sound much more like Steve Jobs to me than Warren Buffett.
Chang Kim: [00:26:22 - 00:28:06]
Yeah. So I think it's like using different muscle. Right. And the other thing to keep in mind is, and this was something that I took into consideration a lot when I was. When I was doing the soul searching part, is that no matter what you do, you have to think, like, hey, long term. Right. Because in order to build anything great, it has to be a long journey. So, yeah, if you're a founder, building a great company, if you think about, like, Airbnb, Uber, any company that you, you know, like, stripe, these are, like, ten plus year companies, right? And then even the venture funds. You know, you mentioned altos before this call, you know, because we're both good friends with them, and Altos is amazing. I mean, they're, like, killing it. But they've been around for, like, 20 plus years at this point, so anything that you think is, like, an overnight success actually takes a lot longer than you expect. So, yeah, using different muscles and anything that you do is a long term, potentially long term project are the things that you have to keep in mind. Meaning, hey, if somebody wants to kind of transition from the founder role to the investor role, then you have to realize this is like, a ten year journey. So maybe, like, the first couple of years, you might have, like, the different kind of, like. Because, you know, you're using different muscle, there's always that discomfort, but you should remember that it's gonna be a ten year journey. So I might be like, hey, like this. I might have, like a. I guess, like a freshman sophomore kind of, you know, difficulties, but then I'm not, you know, in this for, like, two years. I'm in this for ten years. So hopefully that might be helpful.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:28:06 - 00:28:17]
Well, but if you start a new business, you better also plan for ten years. So either way, it will be a marathon.
Chang Kim: [00:28:19 - 00:28:21]
Yes, absolutely.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:28:21 - 00:28:39]
It needs to be seriously considered if and when you're ready for it. And again, this whole healing and resting and traveling and expanding our horizons, I think it's just so important because we need to accumulate our energy first before we channel it somewhere.
Chang Kim: [00:28:39 - 00:30:37]
Yeah. And the other thing, my theory is. My other theory is, you know, you can't really put a deadline on soul searching. I mean, it's just very difficult. Like, a lot of people. I mean, going back to the dating analogy, right? Nobody goes out there and then say, hey, I want to get married by a certain day, certain time. I mean, it should be the other way around. I mean, you don't think about the marriage necessarily, but, you know, if you find the love and then, like, you know, then one thing leads to another, and naturally the outcome happens. So you really cannot put that line on soul searching. So. But what you do is you kind of, like, you know, wait for the right moment until the voice comes find you. And the other day, somebody was telling me about the story of, you know, how, like, Newton, Einstein, like, a lot of these scientists found the fundamental, like, the breakthrough theories when they are resting. But, you know, so, like, you know, Newton, the apple falling from the tree. I mean, like, that story actually tells you that Newton was sitting under the tree, which means that he was taking a rest. Like if he was, like, sitting under the tree. Yeah, exactly. So, like, if you were. If he was sitting under the tree for ten years, and did he find the gravity? Probably nothing, right? Or, like, if he was in the lab the whole time, not sleeping, not eating, just thinking about the gravity, he probably wouldn't have been able to find the gravity either. So it has to be some sort of combination of, like, hard thinking and taking yourself outside out of it a little bit, taking a step back, taking a little rest. So you have to kind of get into that rhythm of, like, hard thinking. You still have to put in the work. I mean, you can expect to find the great truth without putting the work first. So you have to kind of find the balance between putting the work and then sometimes taking a step back.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:30:37 - 00:31:38]
No, I absolutely agree with you. We need to create time and space for it first and then actually do the work of thinking and maybe get bored. Because my observation is, most people are so scared of facing their internal demonstration and so reluctant to do the work that what they do is either they just get very, very busy and tell themselves a story of why it's very important and how they already found their purpose and meaning and everything, or they accept some kind of memes, you know, that's popular kind of band aids theories that other people seem to believe in. And then they put them as labels on their foreheads, and they say, okay, I figured this out. This is my answer. But I think below the surface, what it is is just this fear and reluctance to do the work because our brain naturally resists a change and resists doing hard work if it can avoid it.
Chang Kim: [00:31:38 - 00:33:08]
Yes. Even, like, simple questions like, what do you want to do in life? I mean, that's like the biggest, the most, like, difficult question ever. And, yeah, you're right. Absolutely right. Some people might be, like, giving their surface level answer and then they never had a chance to kind of go deep into, you know, inside themselves, and then they think that, hey, like, this surface level answer is what I. What I like, but then they never had the exercise where they're, like, facing themselves and then, like, kind of going deep into them. For me, what was really helpful was obviously talking to other people. So what I did as part of the sabbatical was just like, you know, went out there and then talked to a lot of people. And I deliberately chose to talk to people, like, a lot of people who are not part of my circle, like the tech, you know, startup circle. So. And La is actually very good for that because you, you get to meet a lot of other, you know, walks of life and I. Yeah, and I. Nothing, nothing serious, nothing like deep. It's just like you hang out with them and then, hey, how's everything going? How's your life? And, you know, one thing leads to another and then you're, you're having this conversation and you still look at how other people live, and then that actually tells you a lot of stories that you can, you know, use to kind of look at yourself. So, yeah, for me, talking to a lot of people were, and, you know, not necessarily from the people from the same industry was really, really helpful.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:33:08 - 00:33:23]
So do you think your cultural background makes your journey somehow different from people from other cultural backgrounds that you talk to? I'm talking about exited founders, I think so.
Chang Kim: [00:33:23 - 00:37:38]
So as a Korean, so, like, the way I got into the Internet industry was by accident, almost. So my upbringing. So my father was a college professor, and he would regard, like, anybody who doesn't have PhD as a failure. So, you know, like, I mean, the proverbial, like, you have to be either a doctor or a lawyer, really, really apply to, you know, our household. So, yeah, when I was in college, I was a pre med student. I was learning chemistry, biology, physics without even knowing why. I wanted to learn about those. I wanted to be a doctor, but not even knowing why. I mean, I had absolutely no reason other than, you know, my father wanted me to be a doctor, so. But I think at some point I was almost, like, fooling myself. It's like, oh, yeah, like, that's something that you want to do, but it wasn't, it wasn't true. And what happened after was because I'm a korean citizen. I was a korean citizen back then. Uh, now I'm a us citizen, but I had a korean passport, and every male like, you know, men, korean men has to go to army. Yeah. So after studying in the US, I had to go back to Korea to serve in the army. And this was during the.com boom. And what the korean government had was this special program that let you actually work in Internet companies instead of going to the army. So it was a select few people who had a job in those companies. Certain companies you get exempt from the army duty. So I was like, all right, what is that program? I mean, I would rather work in a big or interesting companies rather than going to the army and spending my next three years. And then one thing led to another, and then I got a position at this Internet company again. This was.com, you know, boom. So, like, late nineties. And at that point, I had no idea I had anything. I didn't know anything about, like, startups or, like, technology, Internet, nothing. But somehow I got, I got the opportunity to work in this company, and it was like a real life MBA. I had to learn every single thing because I was one of the few, probably the only non engineer at the company. The company was doing actually very well, and they eventually became a public company and so on, so forth. But in terms of, like, writing, you know, business plan, raising money from investors, and eventually going to public market, like, a lot of work fell onto me. And I remember, like, at that point, I was, like, grumbling because it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, because I'm, like, doing my army duty, so I wasn't getting paid a lot money, but, but I did a lot of work, and then I knew about nothing, so I had to learn every single thing. But in hindsight, that was a really, really good opportunity for me to learn about, you know, technology and how to run a company. And the other thing was, it was a really good experience for me to experience the startup company, even though it wasn't my company, of course. I was just, you know, doing my, my army duty there. But I could see the company growing really, really fast, and that was my very first job. So I have this theory where, like, the first job affects you a lot. Like the, like, whatever, like, experience you get from your first job affects people more than they think. So, yeah, that was a really, really good experience for me in terms of, like, startup, experiencing the startup secondhand. I. So kind of going back to your question about, hey, did the culture background affect my decisions. Absolutely. And I think that's the case for everybody. Right? Everybody has different background. Everybody goes through, like, different experience. But whatever experience you go through, like, early in your career, I think that has a lot of impact in people. Yeah, and certainly was case for me as well.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:37:38 - 00:37:50]
How about your post exit experience? Do you think the way you look at the world, the way you think I think about what to do next is affected also by your career and heritage.
Chang Kim: [00:37:50 - 00:39:03]
So I think people like me, post active founders, when they start another thing, I think more people, you can really say that you're really going for meaning and purpose more. And of course, that's what every founder says. They're mission driven. They're really going for mission and purpose. But the first time founders, they really want to have the exit under their belt. They really want to have a financial return. There's more strong pull from other motivations. But you're starting the third company. The first couple companies luckily became successful, then you don't necessarily need to prove yourself all the time, so you get free from that pressure. So. So I think when you say, hey, for this time, I'm really optimizing for meaning and purpose, you, you mean that more than you know when you're starting your first company. So, yeah, that's a difference, I would say. It's really fulfilling. I mean, you're able to say, like, when you say you're going for meaning and purpose, you actually do mean it. I think that's really liberating.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:39:03 - 00:39:33]
You mentioned that you don't need to prove yourself anymore. Yet I meet lots and lots of post exit founders who are suffering from an imposter syndrome, or they basically feel they haven't really proved themselves, or they are afraid that they will be seen as one trick pony and they will never be successful again. There's like this whole collection of self doubt and insecurities that suddenly jump on these people. Do you have any of that?
Chang Kim: [00:39:33 - 00:42:18]
You know what everybody has, right? I mean, no one is free from those imposter syndromes or, like, insecurities. I mean, no, no one. I mean, people can say that they don't have it, but then, you know, I don't really believe that. So everybody, you know, has that to a certain degree. But I think it's a conscious choice. Right? I mean, just because you as a, like, you know, human nature, you have the human nature doesn't mean that you have to be trapped inside the human nature all the time. So, I mean, during my sabbatical, you know, when I, when I looked at the people around me, you know, they were, like, advancing in their career, like, super fast. And remember, like, 2023, that was a year of generative AI. And, you know, a lot of my connections and friends, they started this awesome companies and immediately get, like, a super crazy, like, valuation, and they raised big money, and then they announced that on LinkedIn and, and Twitter all the time. I have, like, couple other people who joined the public company board, got recruited as a CXO, you know, c level suite, you know. So, yeah, lots of things happened when I was taking time off, and then you get that feeling of, like, you feel like you're standing still and then everybody else is like, you know, jumping ahead and then running ahead. So you get that feeling. Right. But I think it's really, like where you set the site. If you set the sight at somebody who is, like, who you think is better than you, like, advancing faster, then you always feel like you're falling behind, right? So, like, I mean, you know, we're talking about the post exit founders, but then, like, you know, even if you sold your company at a, at a $2 billion valuation, for example, you're still not Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos, right? So if that, that person is setting the sight at, hey, compared to Mark Zuckerberg or, you know, Jeff Bezos, I'm like, nothing, then that person will probably be very unhappy. But then if they, like, look inwards and then, hey, we've been very successful, and then we've been. And when we look at the people around us, like, important people, our family, friends, I can spend more time with them. I can provide for them better. It's like, you know, I'm free from, like, this, like, small, like, stresses. Like, you know, like, you know, when you're financially not secure, there's always, like, you know, those, like, small things that bother you, and then you don't have to think about those as much. That's really, really, like, you know, blessing. So if you look at those positive aspects, and then, so it. So it's really a matter of, like, where you set the side at, I think.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:42:18 - 00:42:23]
Tell me how your exit affected your relationships with your wife.
Chang Kim: [00:42:23 - 00:44:46]
Yeah, my wife. You know, funny thing is, like, my wife actually helped out the company at the beginning, so she doesn't have, like, a work relish work experience, a lot of work experience. So, like, after graduate school, we got married, and, you know, after we got married, we had a first child, so she didn't have, like, a. A lot of work experience. But when you're starting a new startup. I mean, there's, it's, like, all hands on deck situation, and we actually had a lot of, like, admin work to do because we were creator platform, and we had to, like, pay out the creators, and we were sending, like, a bunch of Paypal transactions to the creators every month, so we needed some help. So my wife actually ended up helping out, doing a lot of admin stuff, so she was really, really critical at the start of the company. So, yeah, after the exit, I remember still, it's like a small episode, but then, like, you know, we were traveling somewhere, and then we were about to close, but we never knew, like, what exactly what day, what time the deal would close, but then, and, you know, like, one day I wake up, and then, you know, the deal was closed, and then, you know, we looked at the account, and then there's this, you know, number that we didn't see before. And then, you know, and then I woke up my wife, and then I didn't say anything, like, no word. But then I just showed my phone to her, and she's like, what is this? And then I just, like, you know, showed it to her, and then I remember, like, us, like, hugging, like, for, like, a little bit, and then we didn't say anything, but. And for some weird reason, I, you know, I shook hands with her. I don't know why I did that, but it's like, you know, we accomplished this together kind of thing, I guess. But then we had a little bit of a handshake, and then. And then I went back to work, actually, so. No, like, a funny, interesting story there. Not necessarily, but. And we had a little bit of, like, the moment where, hey, we worked on this project for such a long time. We did this together, but after that, life as usual.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:46 - 00:44:48]
How many kids do you have?
Chang Kim: [00:44:48 - 00:44:49]
I have three kids.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:44:49 - 00:44:51]
Oh, wow. How old are they?
Chang Kim: [00:44:51 - 00:45:05]
Yeah, so we had the first two kids when we were doing the first, the second company, and then recently we had a newborn baby. So we have a huge age gap between the first and second child and the third child.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:45:05 - 00:45:13]
Are you considering being a full time parent for a while, or, you know, it's not gonna be something you fulfill?
Chang Kim: [00:45:15 - 00:46:14]
I don't know about, like, so last year, I was pretty much a full time dad. I did all the school rides. I did everything. Packed a lunch for the kids, everything. And I still try to, like, get involved as much as possible. Like, I still do do, like, a ride duty. But then, yeah, the challenge is a newborn. We have a kind of live in nanny, so she's helping out a lot, but during the weekends, we're on our own. So anytime you have a newborn baby, it's always tough. Right. But it's also a blessing, too. Yeah. When you have a third child, after a long while, it's a very different experience. Your expectation level is so low. Meaning, like, you know, when you have, like, first child, you're like, hey, you know, you should do this. You shouldn't do this. Right? I mean, there's a lot of things that you're expecting from the child, but then, yeah, third child, you don't want anything from. It's like, just be healthy. I don't care. Like, I don't care what you do. Just. Just be healthy.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:46:14 - 00:46:47]
Exactly, exactly. I have three kids when my younger one is ten years younger than the previous one, so I knew exactly what we're talking about. I'm so relaxed, but also, I'm enjoying motherhood so much more because I'm not stressing out. I was quite a fanatical mom with the first one, and now, exactly as you said, I just want to love that child. I want him to feel loved, and I want him to be healthy. That's it. That's the end of my ambition. No helicopter parenting anytime soon.
Chang Kim: [00:46:47 - 00:47:06]
Yeah. That's actually better for the child, too. Right. Because when you're under the pressure, the kids feel it. Right. It's like the first child, you know, all this kind of feels that, but the second and third child, I mean, you know, they know that there's less pressure, which is better for them psychologically.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:47:06 - 00:47:10]
So do you want your kids to be entrepreneurs when they grow up?
Chang Kim: [00:47:11 - 00:48:40]
That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, my mantra is just, like, whatever they want to do in life, you know, I want to support them, but, so I think as a parent, what you do is try to give them opportunities so that they can find what they do, what they like. Right. So I think that's a parent's role. Like, when you try to step more into. Into that process and then try to do things for them, I mean, it just doesn't work. Right. So you got to know when to step out, when to step in. And for me, it's always been like, you know, giving them the opportunity at least, like, you know, have them experience so that they can know what they like or not like. So, yeah, that's part of the reason why we, so we did a lot of traveling together as a family, especially last year because I took the time off. But even before that, we we traveled a lot, reading, you know, books. You know, I like to read books, by the way. So, like, you know, when you, as a parent likes to read, then kids tend to like, because, you know, it's one thing to tell. Tell the kids, hey, you have to read all the time. Right? But then you're never reading. Then it really doesn't work. As opposed to, like, you know, you're, like, reading, and the kids can see that, and then they're kind of reading together with you. Yeah. So I. My mantra is always like, hey, let's try to give them as much opportunity to experience different things and then kind of let them figure out what they like and not like.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:41 - 00:48:44]
Fantastic. Is your wife also korean?
Chang Kim: [00:48:45 - 00:48:46]
Last time I checked, yes.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:47 - 00:48:57]
So if you had to rate your level of fulfillment today, fulfillment, not just happiness between zero and ten, where are you?
Chang Kim: [00:48:58 - 00:48:59]
I would say nine.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:48:59 - 00:49:00]
Oh, wow.
Chang Kim: [00:49:00 - 00:49:01]
Okay. Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:01 - 00:49:03]
That's the highest I've ever heard. Amazing.
Chang Kim: [00:49:04 - 00:49:04]
Really?
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:05 - 00:49:07]
What do you think feeds into your fulfillment?
Chang Kim: [00:49:07 - 00:49:42]
Well, I have found what I want to do in life again. That was after a lot of thought, a lot of, you know, soul searching, a lot of mission finding. So I think I did put in a lot of work to discover myself and what I want to do for the rest of my life. If you had the same question to me last year, let's say, like, may or June last year, the answer would have been different. I would probably have said, like, four or five, because I was still, like, searching.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:49:42 - 00:49:43]
Yeah.
Chang Kim: [00:49:43 - 00:51:36]
Yes. And like I said, I mean, the simple question of, like, what do you want to do in life? Is the most, like, difficult question and potentially stressful question. So I think I did go through some of those periods where I was feeling a little anxious. It's like, hey, I wanted to find what I want to do. Like, I was giving myself certain amount of time. It's like, hey, I knew that I wanted to take a year off, but then, like, I was hoping that by the end of the year, I knew very clearly what I wanted to do. And then as the clock was ticking, I had this, like, a psychological pressure of, oh, yeah, like, I better know what to do next because I was giving myself, like, a year, even though nobody told me, like, I could potentially take, like, three years off or four years off. I mean, no one told me, you have to take exactly one year off. But then, because that was sort of the amount of time that I was giving myself, I was kind of getting anxious towards, like, the later part of the year. But two things happened. One is, again, the child, the newborn baby. So we had a baby in December last year or so. Like, my sabbatical kind of became like, a paternity leave. There was no, like, a dividing line. It just became paternity leave. So I had to, like, take more time off. And then the other thing is finally, you know, a lot of soul searching, a lot of mission finding. I was able to find the clarity. So now I feel like, hey, it's such a blessing because I know exactly what I want to do for the next, like, whatever, years. And then the family's happy, you know, the, the, you know, we have a newborn baby. Baby is healthy and growing. So, yeah, there's absolutely no complaint. Everything's thankful. Like, I'm just like, you know, super grateful for everything.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:51:36 - 00:51:54]
So you said you know exactly what you want to do, and yet before, you said you're still thinking about three different options. So for your peace of mind, it's sufficient to have a choice of three, or you actually know exactly what do you want to do and just don't want to tell me.
Chang Kim: [00:51:54 - 00:54:01]
No. I'm getting back into the game. I'm building another company again. This will be my third company. So it's funny because this year I'm doing 20 to one project. Like, one is the baby, literally zero to 10 years to one years old, and I'm doing a company, new company. But, yeah, it's super early, so there's not much I can tell right now. So we're still under stealth mode, but generally in the space of helping people. So I want to stay in my background and experience, which is to build the content publishing tools for creators. That's been my thing the whole life, and I want to do it again, but in a different way, so more, again, optimized for meaning and purpose. So I want to build content creation tool for people to share their professional wisdom and experience better. What does it actually mean? That's something that we have to figure out. So I don't really have, like, a lot of details yet, but just generally speaking, on a very high level, I want to help people. You know, people like me, actually. Like, I like to share my experience, my unique experience. Is my experience, like the best ever in the world? Like, no, but is my experience very unique? Yes. And everybody has had their unique experience and learning and wisdom captured, but a lot of those wisdom and experience and knowledge is still trapped in people's head. So what if we can kind of unlock more knowledge and wisdom and experience from people's headland, especially for people like you and me who had the experience. Right. So that's generally the space that I want to be in. And I want to create, like, a content creation tool for those people. But again, in terms of what it looks like, what does it actually mean? There's a lot of planning to do right now.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:01 - 00:54:07]
So it's content creation, not necessarily a platform for those people to share experience.
Chang Kim: [00:54:08 - 00:54:09]
It'll be a platform.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:09 - 00:54:12]
Yeah, it will be a platform and it will have tools.
Chang Kim: [00:54:12 - 00:54:14]
Yes. So you can be our user.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:54:14 - 00:54:23]
I would love that. I think it's so valuable. I want to be a guinea pig when you need one.
Chang Kim: [00:54:23 - 00:55:18]
No, you're right. I mean, social media today, that's the role of social media. But as you know, social media, we need better social media tools. Like, you know, in general, especially for young, young generation. Yeah, we did just better social networking, social media tool, more meaningful, you know, tools. And even though there's a lot of tools out there, we're still kind of like, you know, in terms of content creation, it's not always easy for everybody. Like, you have your podcast and YouTube channels. Yeah, absolutely. There's no shortage of tools out there. Like there's newsletter, there's medium, there's a podcast, there's YouTube. But for a lot of people, you know, starting a new podcast channel or YouTube channel is kind of daunting. You know, it's not easy all the time for everyone.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:55:19 - 00:55:41]
Yeah, it's still not easy. There is still a lot, a lot of simplification that could be done combining all these different things. The podcast and newsletter. The ultimate dream of any creator would be like, you know, push two buttons and it's there. Right. And we are very far from that, I think.
Chang Kim: [00:55:41 - 00:56:22]
Yeah. So there's the tools, and also there are motivation. There's motivation, too, or knowledge. Right. So a lot of people don't know how to create content, even though there are many tools available. So they just don't know where to start. So, yeah, if we can make the content creation process much, much easier, where maybe they can be prompted, maybe there can be, like, easier to use tools, whatever it means. If you can make the barrier lower so that more people can share more knowledge and wisdom, I think it can be very meaningful thing.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:56:22 - 00:56:23]
And that's what motivates you.
Chang Kim: [00:56:23 - 00:57:02]
Yes, I love it. Part of that came from my own experience. So last year during my sabbatical, I was trying to, like, you know, share my experience to other people. I invested in about 55 companies and funds, mostly the founders that I, that I knew from before. So I did a ton of angel investing. And of course, I try to, like, mentor and help other founders as much as possible, which was a really fulfilling experience for me. Of course it's, like, tiring and, like, you know, it's a sometimes, like, big time commitment. So I couldn't, like, help everybody, of course.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:57:02 - 00:57:02]
Yeah.
Chang Kim: [00:57:02 - 00:58:41]
But all the ones that I was trying to help, I was, you know, trying to really, like, help them kind of, you know, by sharing my own experience. And the other thing was during my sabbatical, like, in terms of, like, finding what to work next. Like, the. The number one question that really, really helped me was, hey, if I had, like, five years to live, five years to live, like, what would I do? So I thought about the question a lot, and I was imagining visualizing myself. It's like, hey, I go to the doctor's office and the doctor gives me the unfortunate news, like, hey, you only have five years. Then what would I do? The first thing I was thinking was maybe I would try to dump everything in my brain. Whatever I learned from my professional experience, whatever I experience and wisdom and learning, I would try to get them out of my brain and then kind of try to capture in some ways, it can be books or it can be like, blog posts, it can be newsletter, it can be whatever. But I didn't want to kind of die with all these things trapped in my head, unshared. So, yeah, based on those findings, so my desire to share and then the fulfillment of that I, that I felt when I was actually, you know, sharing with other founders, these were kind of like a motivation and inspiration for me to think about this platform where, hey, what if, you know, not just me sharing my experience and knowledge, but, like, allowing other people to share their experience and knowledge better? So, yeah, that was kind of the beginning.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:58:41 - 00:58:43]
Fantastic. Best of luck with that one.
Chang Kim: [00:58:43 - 00:58:50]
Yeah, thank you. But we don't have anything. We don't have product. We don't have, like, nothing. So we'll see.
Anastasia Koroleva: [00:58:50 - 00:59:14]
You have all the experience, and you are actually driven by the mission, as you said before, genuinely driven by the mission, as opposed to just getting more money, which means that you will be focusing on what people actually need as opposed to some artificial metrics in attempt to raise money. Talking about that, by the way, do you think you would go and raise money for this company?
Chang Kim: [00:59:14 - 01:00:43]
Not for the beginning. I think we'll bootstrap the company at the beginning, but at some point, yes. I mean, going out and raising money is great because that's the only time when you get the honest feedback right. You need to go out there and raise money from VC's. Yeah, because, yeah, like, a lot of people around me because, you know, I was, again, luckily successful in my previous companies. Whatever I say, you know, a lot of times people say, oh, yeah, that's, that's a brilliant idea, but I know that it's not brilliant. It's, like, stupid sometimes. So I need, like, a very honest opinion. And by the way, I have, like, friends who give me, like, super honest feedback, and I'm like, forever, you know, grateful for them. I think as you get older, you need those friends who can say anything, and I feel like I'm lucky because I do have those friends, but, like, weaker connections. Like, you know, like, the people that I meet in a professional setting, a lot of them say, like, oh, yeah. Like, you must know what you're, what you're doing because you have the prefix previous experience, but, you know, not necessarily. Right? Like, I know, like, a lot of my ideas are stupid, so I need, like, unvarnished opinion and feedback. And oftentimes that comes from the investors who need to deploy the capital, and their capital is on the line, and they can be super honest in that moment.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:00:44 - 01:01:00]
If you talk to somebody who just sold a company and were at that level of four five where you were a year ago of fulfillment, what would you suggest they do or what lessons you would share?
Chang Kim: [01:01:00 - 01:03:39]
My first advice would, again, like, slow things down because, you know, like, a lot of successful people, they have the tendency to kind of bring their momentum, like, previous, you know, muscle memory into this. In other words, they try to, like, treat this, like, soul searching process as another project. But this is different. You have to unwind. You have to kind of wait until the voice comes to you, not the other way around. So you have to kind of, like, still put in the work. You have to read books. You have to talk to a lot of people and so on. So for, you have to do, like, those walks and, like, talk, you know, talks with yourself. So put in the work, but then don't, like, try to rush things or try to put a deadline to this, but rather, you know, be patient and be very, like, sensitive to your, like, small inner voice. Yeah, you got to stay sensitive because, you know, this findings oftentimes come, you know, start from a very small voice inside you, but if you're not sensitive enough, you can't, you know, listen to that. You might just miss it. Right. So you got to stay very sensitive and, yeah, so my number one tip would be, hey, take things slowly. Don't approach this as another project with a clear deadline. So that's number one. Number two, like I said, I mean, for me, talking to a bunch of other people, especially the ones who are not necessarily very close to you or do the same things that you do, wasn't really helpful. So go out there, talk to a lot of people, and reading is actually, my opinion is reading, of course, like, depends on what type of books you're reading. But reading is almost like, similar experience as talking to people because you get to learn about other people's life, and then you get to see how other people dealt with the experience circumstances. So it's almost equivalent to, like, talking to a bunch of people. So, yeah, either, like, talk to actual people or try to read books where you can learn about other people's life. By far, that was the biggest or the best experience in terms of, like, seeing my. Being able to see myself, being able to kind of, like, use other people's stories as a way to reflect. You try to see your own reflection in there. I. Yeah, so those two would be my. My tips for them.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:03:39 - 01:03:43]
Any particular books or biographies that you would recommend?
Chang Kim: [01:03:43 - 01:05:49]
There's too many. So I have this, like, tendency to buy a lot of books. When I go to, like, Barnes and Noble, I just, like, buy books a lot, and then I never read them because I never, you know, I didn't have a time, but finally I was able to, like, tackle, you know, read all these books last year and the kind of books that I really liked. Or again, you know, where I could. I could see all people's life. So, like, I really enjoyed Warren Buffett book the snowball. I really enjoyed some other books where I could, like, literally, it's like, you know, it feels like I'm walking with that person kind of. Kind of books. I'm not saying, like, that's the best book ever, but, like, in terms of, like, talking to random strangers, one book that I read is called Hangry Hanky. So that's a book written by the grub pup founder. And it's an interesting book because this guy, after selling the company, so he's talking about his, like, company, like, lessons learned and everything. But then also he's going on this bike trip from the east coast of the US to the west coast. So it's a cross continental bike trip. And then the book is like, you know, kind of, like, juxtaposing the learnings from the company with the bike trip, road trip. And then he's talking about how, like, talking to the people that he met, you know, during the bike trip kind of helped transform, you know, his thoughts. So that was really fascinating. I didn't set out to, like, do the road trip, like, bike trip across the country, but I did want to kind of get out of my comfort zone. I have, you know, these people that I always talk with, and I continue talking with them. I mean, there are people that I could just, like, pick up the phone and then call anytime. So it's important for you to have those people as well, but sometimes you have to kind of get out of your comfort zone and then talk to people who are walking different, you know, paths then compared to you. So for me, again, like, it's, you know, kind of going outside of the tech bubble was really interesting and helpful experience.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:05:49 - 01:05:55]
So this gets me to my last question. How do you want to be remembered?
Chang Kim: [01:05:55 - 01:08:20]
I mean, there's two different levels, right? Be remembered in general, like Wikipedia entry of some sort or be remembered by the people close to you. And as I get older, I think that I am more interested in the latter, not the former. So, yeah, I get to think a lot about how would, you know, my children remember me, or, you know, whoever is, like, close to me will remember me. So I get to, like, think a lot more of those aspects then, like, how would I be remembered in general? So, yeah, I want to be remembered as caring person who were always trying to make time for the important people. I want to be remembered as somebody who is generally busy, but when it comes to, like, one on one conversations, you know, I don't, I don't rush, you know, I'm there for them. And so that's like a relationship piece again, the second bucket of, like, how do I want to be remember, remembered by the people around me. People. Or, like, the first bucket, like, how do I want to be remembered in general? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I always care about the startups. I build startups. I help other startups. So I guess the tagline for me would be somebody who really, like, you know, cared about, like, solving the world's problem through either, like, starting his own company or helping other entrepreneurs. Yeah. So I, I would be remembered as, I guess, my work, you know, for the first bucket. So hopefully this new company or in the future, I might start other, you know, things will kind of define, you know, help define my legacy or, you know, how I will be remembered in general. But like I said, I mean, as I get older, I care a lot more about the second bucket, which is how, you know, other people would, other people around me would remember me. And I don't know, I don't have, like, a really good answer there. I guess it's a really good question. I need to kind of think about it a little more, but. Yeah, so far that's what I'm thinking.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:08:20 - 01:08:28]
But I love how human and raw and genuine your answer is.
Chang Kim: [01:08:28 - 01:08:29]
Yeah.
Anastasia Koroleva: [01:08:31 - 01:08:38]
Thank you so much. CK. I really enjoyed the interview. I could go on for hours, but I'm being mindful of your time. Maybe we can.
Chang Kim: [01:08:38 - 01:08:43]
Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much.
